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Hits: 8010 | Rating: (3.7) | Category: Community & Lifestyle | Added by: Sweepofdeath
Page: 1 2 3 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 8:41:31 PM
Speaking of being uninformed, if it's not so bad (following the New Testament) and you're so much more informed than "Christians", why do you hate it so much yourself?


Would you explain what you mean, because I'm not following you. Are you replying to me or using a generic 'you'?

Xprez
Male, 30-39, Western US
 676 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 8:26:15 PM
Speaking of being uninformed, if it's not so bad (following the New Testament) and you're so much more informed than "Christians", why do you hate it so much yourself?
You see, ALL people bend and twist things to serve their individual purpose.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 8:11:12 PM
The words used in that translation were as CrakrJak described.


Except that they weren't.

But I admit that they're close enough for a plausible speculative etymology.

So why did Paul make up a new word rather than using existing words? He was well educated in Greek - he would have known them. Homosexuality was hardly unknown in ancient Greece (although they viewed it differently to the modern idea of it).

Paul's writing is notoriously open to interpretation (and notoriously unpleasant).

axeman929
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 191 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:56:36 PM
Christ did talk about marriage as being between a man and a woman. The new testament talks about sexual immorality. Which was sex among unmarried people. The bible talks about spouses submitting to one another. And as too slavery it was not that God wanted slavery (God didnt want Kings by the way) it was that slaves could inherit the kingdom and everlasting life and that was more important that this life.

tbkjj7
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 6 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 11:36:03 AM
@Angilion
Yes, I am sure CrakrJak was aware that the OT was originally written in Hebrew (he said "Greek translation").

Whenever Paul or any of the Gospel writers references Old Testament scripture in their writing, they use the Septuagint (a very popular Greek translation). The words used in that translation were as CrakrJak described.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:50:26 AM
Also, that verse in Leviticus doesn't condemn a man lying with a man. One interpretation of it condemns a man lying with a man *as if with a woman*.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:47:15 AM
The Greek translation of the Leviticus passages condemns a man (arseno) lying with (koitai) another man (arseno). Paul joins these two words together into a neologism, arsenokoitai.


The word 'arsenokoitai' appears in 1 Corinthians and in Timothy (in a copy of the list in 1 Corinthians).

That's a book in the new testament.

Leviticus is a book in the old testament.

1 Corinthians and Timothy were orginally written in Greek.

Ancient Greek translations of Leviticus do not contain the word 'arsenokoitai'.

You are making things up in order to make your bible condemn what you have decided it should condemn.

Back in the real world, the meaning of arsenokoitai is unknown. There are no uses of it prior to 1 Corinthians. The handful of uses afterwards go back to 1 Corinthians. We don't know its meaning. We don't know its roots (you are *assuming* that they are "men" and "bed").

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 8:58:42 AM
Is it really any surprise that there were homophobe authors in those days, too? The men who wrote the bible books put anything they wanted to happen in them, including making women submissive (except for a couple they elevated to untouchable status) and the right to kill and make slaves the eople they thought were beneath them.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16941 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 3:15:56 AM
The Greek translation of the Leviticus passages condemns a man (arseno) lying with (koitai) another man (arseno). Paul joins these two words together into a neologism, arsenokoitai.

Which is no much different than the joining of the English words "who" and "ever" to make "whoever". Today we have dictionaries, the ancient greeks did not. Today when a new word becomes well known it's often added to our dictionaries, there was no such thing back in Paul's day.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 1:39:20 AM
It's only very recently have other interpreter's versions, began to change wordings to such an extent that it's inaccurate and in some cases downright deceptive.


Rubbish. People have been doing that right from the first translations. You are doing it - you are taking a word *with no known meaning* and pretending that it means what you want it to mean in order to create biblical condemnation for something you want your bible to condemn.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Thursday, December 05, 2013 1:37:10 AM
Angilion: The term "homosexual" was not created until the 20th century. So if you're trying to find a direct equivalent word in ancient greek you won't find it.


That's true, but it's sophistry. Ancient Greek does have some words describing what we would nowadays call homosexuality. The difference was they viewed it as something a person did rather than something a person is. They did have several words that meant "a person who does homosexuality". There's quite a lot of ancient Greek writing refering to homosexuality between men, since it wasn't taboo.

Arsenokoitai is not one of those words.

Just because you, don't interpret the words that way, doesn't change what it originally meant.


But nobody knows what that word meant. That's an important point.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16941 Posts
Wednesday, December 04, 2013 10:00:40 PM
Angilion: The term "homosexual" was not created until the 20th century. So if you're trying to find a direct equivalent word in ancient greek you won't find it. Just because you, don't interpret the words that way, doesn't change what it originally meant.

The Latin translators, scribes mostly, did the very best they could with much guidance from priests and scholars. Then again later, the Bible was translated to German, then English and other languages. They all took great care to not add or subtract from the word of God, and despite all it's translations it has remained remarkably accurate to the ancient texts.

It's only very recently have other interpreter's versions, began to change wordings to such an extent that it's inaccurate and in some cases downright deceptive.

That is why I have and use a Strong's Concordance, when something questionable is quoted.

McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 13285 Posts
Wednesday, December 04, 2013 5:27:34 AM
Do the big bad Christians still stone gays? Hmmmm mabey we should fix the groups that still do the murder thing for that. Then work on the smaller stuff baby steps guys.

We also need a new subject here religion, police brutality in US and US politics have been beaten to death.

JadesDitoyr
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 476 Posts
Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:51:20 AM
@Fwoggie2
Nah, I'd say that goes to Pride. "I deserve that land." "I deserve his wife." "I deserve better." "He is unworthy of that."

@Draculya
Very colorful.

LemonCurry
Male, 40-49, Asia
 1002 Posts
Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:50:15 AM
you're telling me jesus was living with 12 young, strong, handsome fellows and they never had a bit of fun together after hours? c'mon ...

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12128 Posts
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41:04 PM
People can stuff each other up the poop chute all they want. We have no right to say otherwise; nor should we.

Fwoggie2
Male, 30-39, Europe
 1754 Posts
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:49:18 PM
Ah, religion, by far the greatest source of angst, violence and death...

Demstar_Aus
Female, 18-29, Australia
 172 Posts
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 9:29:04 PM
Nope! Jesus said that he came to uphold the law, not throw it out.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 8:57:59 PM
So...men are fine having sex with each other as long as they don't act like one of them is a woman (in which cultural context - their own or early imperial Rome or Greek or iron age Judean?) and homosexuals who engage in the rituals of a long-dead religion that nobody follows any more might suddenly find themselves having heterosexual lust.

Not that I believe in it, anyway. I try to use morality, not religion.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 8:47:21 PM
So what is being condemned in the passage in Romans is Christians returning to older religions (or at least some of the rituals of them), not homosexual lust. The *change* in sexual orientation is the punishment, the thing that would be wrong for the people targeted, not the sexual orientation itself. People who are heterosexual would be likely to be bothered by feeling homosexual lust but people who were bi- or homosexual wouldn't.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 8:43:13 PM
As for the passage in Romans, I cannot see how it could point to anything other than a heterosexual abandoning relationships with the opposite sex (which Paul says to be natural) in favor of that with the same sex (which Paul describes as "shameless").


No, because he was writing in ancient Greek and the nuances are different. The same phrase used to described homosexual lust in that phrase is used, for example, to describe Jews and Gentiles meeting peacefully (Romans 11:24).

The passage in Romans is about a group of Christians who returned to an older religion and were punished by the Christian god by having homosexual lust imposed on them, which was not usual ('para physin', often misleadingly translated as 'unnatural') *for them*. The *unfamiliarity* of it is the punishment - it would make no sense as a punishment otherwise.

Bah, out of space again.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 8:28:58 PM
There's a particularly famous example from somewhat later - Gaius Julius Caesar. His political career was hampered by rumours about the relationship he had with the king of Bithynia while he was in self-imposed exile from Rome as a young man (he backed the loser in a civil war and the winner had habit of killing people).

It wasn't that it was a homosexual relationship - hardly anyone in 1st century BC Rome cared about that. What was damaging to Caesar's reputation was the allegation that he wasn't manly enough in his homosex - or to put it another way, that the king of Bithynia lay with Caesar like a woman.

Cultural context can make a lot of different when interpreting things.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 8:24:11 PM
reflecting on the passage in Leviticus 20:13, "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination." Taken in context of sexual immorality, these clearly point to the active and passive roles in a homosexual relationship.


No, they don't and they're not linked to the verse in Leviticus, which isn't as clear as it's made out to be anyway. It's possible to interpret the original Hebrew as forbidding men to have sex in a woman's bed, for example. Sounds silly to us, but so does a lot of stuff from the iron age.

Taking the common interpretation as accurate but placing it in the correct cultural context shows another possible interpretation - sexed roles. Note that it doesn't say "man lie with a man". It explicitly adds "as with a woman". Sexed roles were far more rigid back then and breaking them was highly taboo.

More to follow...

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11327 Posts
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 8:19:09 PM
In fact, the two words of note in 1 Corinthians are translated as such: the former meaning "effeminate", and the latter a combination of "man" and "bed"


'malakoi' is not translated as 'effeminate' anywhere else in the bible, and it was a fairly common Greek word.

'arsenokoitai' has no known meaning. Even translating it as "bed men" is a highly speculative backformed etymology and it doesn't have a clear meaning anyway. Why would "bed men" mean "homosexual men"?

There is the common temptation of the interpreter to add something that follows the way of current thought.


And they are stretching a very great deal to fit those two words into it.

Atrayu4u
Female, 18-29, Western US
 1479 Posts
Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:10:31 PM
As an explanation of the way things in the Bible might be interpreted and followed, I like it. It makes sense.

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