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Climate & Human Civilization Over 18,000 Yrs [

Hits: 6388 | Rating: (1.6) | Category: Science | Added by: 5Cats
Page: 1 2 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21842 Posts
Thursday, November 21, 2013 11:14:50 AM
...to know bullship & lies when I see them.
Welcome to IAB!

Don't trust the "Character Counter" eh? Just a little 'heads up' for y'all.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21842 Posts
Thursday, November 21, 2013 11:13:54 AM
"The BASIS for AGW Theory is that it's ALL man's fault."
@mesovortex: Educate Yourself With Facts Please
MOST OF those who believe in AGW say it's ALL human driven. Fact. AGW Theory falls to pieces without it.

"Complete Rubbish!" Thanks for the back-up @Bakcagain21! Your examples are "spot-on" !

"The fuel may cost more, but they benefit in the whole because of lowered income tax and credits..."

@patchy: With the Government taking money "off the top" with PST and GST and other taxes? It's physically impossible for it to be "revenue neutral". You really do live in "la-la land" to believe THAT!
Wealth Redistribution is what you're talking about: it has never worked, ever.

@johneveryman: I don't need a PHD to kn

johneveryman
Male, 70 & Over, Asia
 8 Posts
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 2:49:45 PM
Pack it up ladies and gents, what does the massively overwhelming scientific consensus of those with PHDs in climate science mean compared to the opinions of right wing pundits and various scientists of far less related areas and repute, also don't forget those getting funded by Exxon as they probably have a very unbiased opinion. Thank our Lord Jesus that people like 5Cats and Crakjak are here to show us the correct interpretation of graphs and numbers that those with years of post graduate study are too inept to consider or understand. There is obviously a conspiracy with climate scientists all over the world that has led us to this situation, after all that is the only logical explanation.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16135 Posts
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:53:39 PM
mesovortex: Human influence on climate is insignificantly small. Planet Earth is going to change it's climate with or without us here, and has been doing so since the beginning.

Blaming human beings for it though is complete bullsh|t, next they'll be blaming us for earthquakes and volcanoes. It's ridiculous.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5597 Posts
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 9:26:11 AM
"There is NO SUCH THING. You are just being stupid now! The people who PAY it don't see it that way! It COSTS THEM MONEY! Same for ANY item moved by truck, air OR train: it costs MORE, not "neutral"."
This is asinine. The fuel may cost more, but they benefit in the whole because of lowered income tax and credits for low income citizens. The BC government has to, by law, show how every dollar raised is returned to the taxpayer in their budget plan. I suggest you read their website to learn more about it...as a conservative you should *love* this tax: It doesn't fund government and it lowers your income taxes. The pittance extra you pay for fuel is nothing compared to the money returned.

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:09:26 AM
When China's increase in one year accounted for more than the entire UK emits, these measures are not going to even do anything.

If there was a global effort than maybe. But as 5Cat's said what's the point in a cure that is worse than the disease...

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:06:37 AM
the rich can afford the solar panels on their homes etc to get the benefits andpayments. The poor are left with higher prices.

When 24,000 people are set to die because of the cold this year in uk it's insane to be raising the cost of energy needlessly for the poor and old.

It's also killing industry in countries. BASF the world oldest and biggest petro chemicals company has pretty much told Germany it cost's too much we're going to go America where the energy and running costs are cheaper and we can compete.

The Green Lobby involved in Parliament is the Leviathon. Even though carbon capture and modern methods with gas would lower emissions no renewable only, nuclear would lower emissions and is incredibly safe (it really is) but no.

As for scientists all being in, how many scandals have happened with exaggerated data. Reason always being "we had to make people realise how big a problem this is so we presented it in that way...."

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Wednesday, November 20, 2013 12:56:51 AM
People thus have an incentive to reduce emissions such that the revenue they receive is larger than the taxes they pay, allowing them to make money on the system by reducing their impact on the climate


Complete Rubbish! some one someone where is paying. You cannae have a system especially one which involves a bureaucracy which is giving more money than is coming in. i.e it is subsidised by money from elsewhere or from other people. Otherwise They've invented a magic money tree.

I'm not opposed to measures, but take the fact Germany has increased emessions due to their reliance on renewables, or fact that the US has decreased theres due to Shale Gas. I'm not opposed to methods to get more secure energy, im not opposed to recycling and waste management schemes and anti pollution measures.

But green levies and taxes in majoirty of world have been a massive wealth shift from the poor to the rich as

mesovortex
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 405 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 4:11:31 PM
@5cats:
"The BASIS for AGW Theory is that it's ALL man's fault. Otherwise 'Global Warming' could not possibly be altered by humans. "

NO NO NO NO NO

Past climate change that occured without humans is accounted for. Current climate change is natural AND has man-made influence.

Why are you so insistently wrong?

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21842 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 3:22:21 PM
@mesovortex: The BASIS for AGW Theory is that it's ALL man's fault. Otherwise 'Global Warming' could not possibly be altered by humans.

The link function on the right of the Reply Box>>>
It's handy!

"Assumption with no basis in reality."
@patchy: Um, no? It's a fact: the "climate scientists" took data from ONE station and "normalized" the other 7, thus increasing the temperature for the ENTIRE South Pole. The other 7 showed NO increase, and the one that did? A building and a black, asphalt runway had been constructed next to it...
Remember all the data they refused to release at first? It was in there, in the AGW supporters OWN DATA.

"This is a revenue-neutral tax,"
There is NO SUCH THING. You are just being stupid now! The people who PAY it don't see it that way! It COSTS THEM MONEY! Same for ANY item moved by truck, air OR train: it costs MORE, not "neutral".
Four Foxes Sake! Are

mesovortex
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 405 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 11:38:42 AM
@AvatarJohn:
"Read the emails from East Anglia. The recent data was intentionally faked.

Also, last 13 years have seen steadily dropping temperatures. Oops!"

Did you bother to research these points?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/14/AR2010041404001.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/01/14/no_global_warming_for_16_years_debunking_climate_change_denial.html

mesovortex
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 405 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 11:37:03 AM
Holy crap at the linked image. The linked image contains data that is woefully incorrect and inaccurate.

Plus, climate scientists know that climate changed in the past, so regardless of ANY changes in the past it does NOT mean that humans can't or aren't changing the climate now.

Rocks got hot before humans arrived. I can also pour boiling water on a rock that I heated myself with my stove and make it hot.

5cats, why are you so scientifically illiterate?

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5597 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 7:50:03 AM
You do know that the AGW has been "normalizing" South Pole data for years? ie: faking.

Assumption with no basis in reality.

So BC taxed the snot out of gasoline, again? And who does that harm most of all? THE POOR! Every single thing becomes more expensive, and that disproportionately hurts those with the lowest income, that's a "cold hard fact" yes?

Your assumptions aren't facts. This is a revenue-neutral tax, meaning that all of the revenue goes back to people and businesses, none goes to government. Income tax is reduced, and for the poor who you falsely claim are worse off, they get a quarterly credit much the same as, and in addition to, the GST credit. The incentive to consume less is the refund you get on income tax. BC has the lowest income tax of all of Canada for people earning up to $122,000. Your baseless speculation is meaningless; they pay LESS. Cold-hard facts, eh?

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21842 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 7:27:08 AM
@patchy: Is that the same as "the heat is hiding at the bottom of the ocean" idea that the IPCC came up with?
You do know that the AGW has been "normalizing" South Pole data for years? ie: faking.

Who do you think is raking in all those subsidies? BIG OIL! And the very rich, that's who!
And PAYS FOR these subsidies? Everyone else!

So BC taxed the snot out of gasoline, again? And who does that harm most of all? THE POOR! Every single thing becomes more expensive, and that disproportionately hurts those with the lowest income, that's a "cold hard fact" yes?

Obviously? You raise the price, demand falls, DUH! But the answer to "Global Warming" is NOT $9.00 per litre gasoline! That much should be obvious...

What good is the "cure" if it does more 10X harm than the "problem"?

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5597 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 6:47:12 AM
Look at the province of BC in Canada, they've introduced a revenue-neutral carbon tax in 2008. A fee is attached to fossil fuel products based on their associated carbon emissions, and 100 percent of the revenue is returned to the citizens. People thus have an incentive to reduce emissions such that the revenue they receive is larger than the taxes they pay, allowing them to make money on the system by reducing their impact on the climate. A peer-reviewed study showed that fuel consumption has decreased more than the rest of Canada's, and that BCs GDP kept pace with the rest of Canada's as well. This is a policy that is actually accepted by conservatives, but you never hear them talking about reducing emissions, because the sky will fall and the economy will collapse, which it obviously won't.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5597 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 6:43:28 AM
I will also point out there is a lot of money in Green Energy, taxes subsidies and research grants. Germany produces 20 billion in green energy 17 billion of it subsidised....

This may be true, but to use your own point to counter, this author is a petrophysicist, and I wonder how much of his funding has come from the fossil fuel lobby?

But to suggest that the 95-99% of all climate scientists who agree AGW is real and a problem are all bought by the money of the green energy lobby is ridiculous. It's funny that I never see conservatives touting any environmental reform or measures to reduce emissions...

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 6:35:56 AM
I will also point out there is a lot of money in Green Energy, taxes subsidies and research grants. Germany produces 20 billion in green energy 17 billion of it subsidised....

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 6:34:58 AM
@patchgrabber to take FoolsPrussia argument "I'm merely pointing out that there are multiple, contradictory arguments from the proponents"

Is that indicative that we don't have much of an idea how much we're affecting and how much of this is beyond our control. Other great threats to humanity, Global Cooliing Y2K bug and countless others.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5597 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 5:10:51 AM
What a bunch of nothing. So because this person (who has no climate experience) interprets rises in civilizations in warm periods as meaning warm periods are natural and good for us, I should take his interpretation over, say, an expert climatologist's? What rubbish. Nevermind that a new study came out showing that global temperature estimates have been underestimated due to gaps in temperature collection at the poles, and after checking satellite data, it has been found that the poles are warming faster than previously thought (it was assumed to be the same as the rest of the world).

Next time you post something about climate, make sure it's from an actual climate scientist at least, not some rocks-for-jocks oil scientist.

Nickel2
Male, 50-59, Europe
 3915 Posts
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 3:04:27 AM
And suddenly it was Wednesday.

AvatarJohn
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 845 Posts
Monday, November 18, 2013 11:47:59 PM
Read the emails from East Anglia. The recent data was intentionally faked.

Also, last 13 years have seen steadily dropping temperatures. Oops!

CreamK
Male, 40-49, Europe
 730 Posts
Monday, November 18, 2013 11:28:22 PM
Blaah blaah 5 Cats blaa blaah: Truth is skeptists don't want to stop polluting, believes in God and lets Him deal with this. Better yet, if they can force this planet to such awful condition God has no choices but to start rapturing people.. blaa blaah.

handimanner
Male, 50-59, Western US
 1691 Posts
Monday, November 18, 2013 9:40:39 PM
Ohh, snap, I'm actually agreeing with 5 cats (lol). Global temps ARE more than human origin. Geopolitical and solar are much more important long term. It is a bit of ego to consider we are the only changes on the planet. That said, it needs to be figured that modern change does mimic AL Gore's figures and that human involvement IS a factor (How can it NOT be with energy usage for an exploding population?)
Consider: Solar cyclic ranges + escalating energy ramifications = ??? (Your guess is as good as mine though I do think if you live on the coast you may want to think higher ground).

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21842 Posts
Monday, November 18, 2013 9:03:57 PM
@FoolsPrussia: Skeptics claim the Earth's temperature:
>Is Not rising as fast as AGW claims.
>Is Not rising ONLY because of human actions.
>It IS rising slowly since the last "little ice age" which is a perfectly normal, long term, repeated throughout history, cycle.

These three major points are not self-contradicting in any way! All three are true at the same time. Easy-peasy! (Unless I've misunderstood you?)

They also claim that it's virtually impossible for humans to STOP the rising temperatures, which is just a "stone cold fact" in my opinion...

Sure it's "possible" if we:
Reduce the population by 90%
Return to the Stone Age

But I don't like either of those options! And they might not even make a measurable difference (in the long run).

FoolsPrussia
Male, 30-39, Western US
 3157 Posts
Monday, November 18, 2013 8:41:28 PM
@Andrew: I'm merely pointing out that there are multiple, contradictory arguments from the deniers. Some say there is no warming trend, others say it's natural. So which is it?

And you're correct about the other part of the population wanting to live like us. That's why I said we'll have to find ways to adapt. You're not saying anything I disagree with (for the moment).

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