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 Zeegrr60
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 1514 Posts
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Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:38:44 AM
Time to kill the retards. |
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 Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
25658 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:47:26 AM
@ Musuko42 - it is a "legally" understood fact, not medically. But I'll go along with "medically" also.
But again you are comparing apples to oranges. Death of a human who is fully developed cannot be compared with a fetus in different stages of development.
Bottom line, no one can say for certain if it's a baby or just tissue. The only thing we know for certain is that left to take it's natural course a baby will come sliding out of there. so again, I err on the side of caution. |
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 5Cats
Male, 40-49, Canada
16973 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:43:49 AM
Before a certain point in the pregnancy, the foetus is not a human life by any real measure:
@Musuko42: Except, you know, DNA! Which the baby has it's own, unique DNA entirely separate from the Mother at 32 cells... before that I'd agree it's "not yet human" but it's still an abortion.
Hint: 32 cells is REALLY early on, before the Mother even knows it...
As for rape? Almost all the "pro lifers" agree that abortion is OK. Here's why:
Choice! She had a choice to get pregnant? No? Then she has a choice now to carry or not.
If she made a choice to have sex, and got knocked up? Well, she threw the dice and now should pay the price: NOT pass the blame to the baby! |
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 soundman655
Male, 50-59, Canada
955 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:42:37 AM
once again, idiots wanting to run others lives with their own dark age superstitious view of life,. Go crawl back in to your cave and be afraid of thunder and lighting and pretend it's you "god" being mad!! |
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 Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
2094 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:35:47 AM
@Gerry1of1
Incidentally, the issue we have here (risk the life of the unwilling mother to save the unborn child) is an example of the trolley problem.
In short: is it morally just to kill an unconsenting innocent person to save another innocent person?
Wikipedia article on the trolley problem |
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Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
2094 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:33:28 AM
@Gerry1of1
It's a medically understood fact that human life ends when the brain shuts down. Do you accept that?
If the answer is yes, then you must either accept that human life begins when the brain starts, or you must explain why you have this disparity of standards. |
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Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
25658 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:49:52 AM
@ Musuko42 - My standard of life is also just my opinion. But when it comes to a child's life at stake, I prefer to err on the side of caution, rather than kill a kid.
As for the risk to the mother...the rapist put her in that position. It's another horrible part of the crime he committed. But there is very, very little risk to her life. There is more risk of a car accident going to court to testify against him...so why put her though the risk of a trial? I am not unsympathetic to what she must have to go through carrying the child to full term, but it is not the babies fault so killing him or her isn't a solution to anything. |
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Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
2094 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:26:01 AM
@Gerry1of1
Why did you edit my quote to change the spelling of foetus? That's the correct British English spelling.
Gerry, you're right that it is an opinion, but I believe it's the only one that sensibly applies to this argument. I should clarify that I am meaning the human being, the soul if you will, which in my view starts and ends with brain activity.
But forget all that for a moment and think about this: when you have a rape victim forced to carry the child to term, you are risking the life (remember, childbirth can kill) of a currently living person, the mother, for the chance of a new life (remember, not all children survive pregnancy and birth), the child, to be born. And you're doing it against the mother's will.
Why would you do that? That doesn't seem moral to me. |
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Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
25658 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 7:02:09 AM
Musuko42, "Before a certain point in the pregnancy, the fetus is not a human life by any real measure"
Nice, well thought-out opinion. But an "opinion" not a scientific fact. The baby grows, feeds, cells multiply... that isn't "Life" ? As you put it, it's a "real measure" of life. Because it hasn't yet achieved it's full intellectual potential isn't a reason to kill it.
Death is very different from the start of life, so you cannot use the same measure...brain activity. |
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Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
2094 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:17:16 AM
@CrakrJak
Ideally, adoption is the best option, yes. But the world isn't ideal, and mothers still do die in childbirth.
The risk is remote with modern medical science, but not zero.
Why should anyone be forced to suffer a non-zero threat to their life as a result of a rape, when a safe alternative can protect them?
Before a certain point in the pregancy, the foetus is not a human life by any real measure: that point is when brain activity begins in the foetus. We measure death as the point where brain activity stops, so why do you disagree with the notion that birth begins when the brain activity starts?
Abortion before that point is not ending a life; it is merely stopping it before it begins, and is no different from what happens in millions of tissues every day. |
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blastaof
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
21 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 6:13:50 AM
The intent has to be to destroy the evidence... so I'm not seeing the problem. |
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 CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
14374 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:14:16 AM
spanerbulb: Human life is more important than any personal choice. Abortion leaves one dead and one wounded. Adoption is the better answer and there are plenty of couples waiting to give a good home to newborns. |
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 ferdyfred
Male, 40-49, Europe
5554 Posts
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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 2:52:57 AM
wtf?? |
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 SarahofBorg
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
3529 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 7:48:21 PM
That's like saying removing a bullet wound from a shooting victim's chest is tampering with evidence. |
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Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
25658 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 7:04:23 PM
spanerbulb, "Abortion is personal a choice which should never be taken away."
@ CrakrJak - I'll let you take first crack at him. 
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 HerColdHands
Female, 18-29, Western US
464 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 4:58:28 PM
Old... and not going to pass. |
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 OldOllie
Male, 50-59, Midwest US
8751 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:53:11 PM
You can preserve a DNA sample for evidence. |
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 spanerbulb
Male, 30-39, Europe
889 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:26:50 PM
A desperate attempt to push forward a backward agenda. Abortion is personal a choice which should never be taken away. |
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 FoolsPrussia
Male, 18-29, Western US
2869 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:25:43 PM
It seems like all my submissions go on a two-month embargo. |
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5Cats
Male, 40-49, Canada
16973 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:18:59 PM
There's an "update" now:
Apparently Cathrynn Brown is aiming to protect women from being forced by their rapists (or incest partner? wtf?) into having an abortion.
I still think it's an idiotic idea.
I agree with @Gerry1 and @CrakrJak.
This is exactly the same thing as the current "gun safety laws" which are simply an attempt to ram un-popular, un-supported, un-constitutional laws up y'all's arses. It doesn't matter if D does it or R does it, it's BAD! |
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 Geogypsy
Male, 18-29, Canada
1803 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:06:21 PM
How and why did this woman become a representative of NM? I think that the only person she's cheapening is herself by trying to find circuitous ways to propose her bill in order to accrue support while she fails even more miserably than before. |
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CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
14374 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:47:47 PM
Again, I'm agreeing with Gerry on this.
I loathe abortion, but if you're going to ban it, do it for the right reason, That it's a human life.
Calling it "tampering with the evidence" is playing games with the law and cheapens human life even more.
Seriously, How would you like to know you were born, not because your mom loved you, but because you were "rape evidence"? |
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Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
1069 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:12:20 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not going to pass. |
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Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
25658 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:05:32 PM
I am anti-abortion but I do hate cowardly politics. "The law won't let me do what I want {ban abortion} so I'll write around the law."
Tampering with evidence is already a crime. This bill is unnecessary. Unless your goal is to ban abortions.
I don't like playing fast & loose with the truth or politics or tax laws! |
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 Mikeoxsbiggg
Male, 30-39, Canada
724 Posts
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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:02:05 PM
Weak. |
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