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jacobubub Male, 13-17, Western US
   136 Posts
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Monday, June 16, 2008 9:35:23 AM "We do know that the first life would had to have been a replicating molecule"One that would have died billions of years ago from all of the mutations it was bombarded with. How can you assume mutations will help a species when there is no given rule to it's existence? |
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Overmann Male, 18-29, Southern US
   3145 Posts
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Tuesday, May 20, 2008 7:26:11 AM "How then can something even more complex than a simple building, such as the creation of life on earth, have just occurred naturally?"This is the infamous argument from incredulity and it comes about from not adequately understanding what scientists are saying. For one, get rid of this notion that life started out being complex. Primitive life was very, very basic, as it would have had to have been. Nothing starts out being complex. A building, for instance, starts out with a cement matrix for a foundation, into which the precursors of a steel skeleton are drilled, and it only goes up from there. Ventilation systems and electrical wiring, the finer details that make a building more complex, are added later. We do know that the first life would had to have been a replicating molecule, one that could reproduce itself in the environment by virtue of its chemical structure. All the add-ons are just there to help it be a better replicator. |
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Overmann Male, 18-29, Southern US
   3145 Posts
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Tuesday, May 20, 2008 7:00:56 AM "I believe that you can feel the creator with your senses, you just have to be open about it."There is no "feeling" the creator that I can be open about without also being open to lying to myself. I can't see a creator; I can't hear a creator; I can't touch a creator; I can't taste a creator; and I can't smell a creator. There is nothing that exists outside of our thoughts that suggest the presence of a deity. "So then you must believe that ancient monuments, like Stonehenge, must have just evolved then." Again you're having a hard time distinguishing between evolution and origins. Evolution does not address the origin of of anything but rather how existing things evolved. |
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Mjustin Male, 18-29, Western US
   322 Posts
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Tuesday, May 20, 2008 6:46:42 AM I would say the reason you think abiogenesis is ridiculous is because you still don't have an understanding of what it is. Despite it being explained numerous times, you have been saying that spontaneous generation is abiogenesis, which is not true at all. Besides, when you say it's too ridiculous (for no reason other than your inability to understand it), it's just a God of the Gaps argument. "I don't see how this could've happened, so it must have been God."Quite the contrary about Stonehenge. While its origins are a bit shady, we have a good idea of where it came from due to old excavation records and such. |
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akabookoo Male, 13-17, Midwest US
15 Posts
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Tuesday, May 20, 2008 3:43:14 AM I believe that you can feel the creator with your senses, you just have to be open about it. I've listened and considered to all the arguments on abiogenesis and decided through reason that it's too ridiculous for me to believe in. Also, what about ancient monuments with unknown origins? According to your logic, You can't see the creator, talk to him (or them), or find blueprints for it. So then you must believe that ancient monuments, like Stonehenge, must have just evolved then. |
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Mjustin Male, 18-29, Western US
   322 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 8:23:48 PM @ akabookoo - That's a very old argument. I know the building had a builder because it is clear the builder existed. I can seek the builder out, see him, and physically talk to him, and he (hopefully) responds. If he's dead, I can find information about him and read the building's blueprints. I also know there was a builder because I have seen buildings being built. I do not know, however, that there was a creator of life. I cannot perceive him with any of my senses,and I have never seen life being created.Think of how life originally was. The first cells were very, very simple compared to the cells of today; the first self-replicating molecule even more so. Also, biochemistry like this is not chance; it inevitably produces complex products. Complex molecules like amino acids are even known to form in space. |
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akabookoo Male, 13-17, Midwest US
15 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 7:22:54 PM davymid* sorry about the typo. |
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akabookoo Male, 13-17, Midwest US
15 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 7:22:00 PM davymind: Yes I am a Christian and I do believe that it makes no sense to believe that life happened by accident. You don't look at a building and think "That's nice, it must have just happened..." You think that it had to have an intelligent designer. How then can something even more complex than a simple building, such as the creation of life on earth, have just occurred naturally? |
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davymid Male, 18-29, Europe
   5553 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 6:12:24 PM Sorry for your wasted post Overmann, you were trying to make a good point on evolution with your suggested link which fancylad sadly hijacked for the sake of controversy, increased hits and hence more advertising revenue. Thus it's turned into a good ol' religious flame war, which I assume it wasn't meant to be.But seeing as we're here, let's dance. @ akabookoo, religion is by very definition devisive, sectarian and destructive to a fair, inclusionary society. I'm assuming you're Christian by your previous comments as to how science needs a god (your God, obviously) to kick-start life. |
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Overmann Male, 18-29, Southern US
   3145 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 6:03:36 PM "...which would have been a likely place to start life if you believe in evolution."Not so. Evolution starts with any replicating entity (even a primitive form of a nucleotide) that can undergo change to make it a more efficient replicator. Life officially starts at the cell but evolution can still be applied to life's precursors. "...but when you get into the beginnings, that's where evolution tests my faith and that's where I can't support it." Evolutionary theory does not address how life started, so you can still accept it wholly to your heart's content. |
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Overmann Male, 18-29, Southern US
   3145 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 5:59:55 PM "And the theory is very unstable at best."What theory are you talking about? There is no accepted theory for how life started. Abiogenesis in the science community is a collection of plausible hypotheses, which is why you can't dismiss the notion of abiogenesis outright without looking and debating the individual hypotheses on their own merit. "I mean, if we haven't been able to reproduce the same things in a laboratory that supposedly happened millions of years ago by natural processes, how could you think it could happen?" Just as humans can make complex things which nature can't, so can nature make complex things which humans can't. I'd be very surprised if humans were capable of making a cell because we lack information on what stages the cell originally underwent. Introducing any part of the cell at the wrong time will end in failure. |
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akabookoo Male, 13-17, Midwest US
15 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 5:34:25 PM Of what he has said for what? |
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Turnshroud Female, 18-29, Midwest US
   5353 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 4:48:56 PM His teachings already existed as ethics and moralsGive me sopme examples of what he has said, for...what's the word? |
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akabookoo Male, 13-17, Midwest US
15 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 4:27:45 PM Turnshoud: So what if we didn't have any understanding of science in the Biblical Era? The teachings of Jesus still apply today and that's why I can't support abiogensis and the idea of evolution from a single celled organism. Many of the other concepts of evolution do not contradict my faith such as speciation and natural selection, or in other words things that can be observed, but when you get into the beginnings, that's where evolution tests my faith and that's where I can't support it. Tetramino: I totally agree with everything you said. The events of our lives give us our outlook on life and make us bias towards one thing or the other. Well said. |
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Tetramino Male, 13-17, Midwest US
  68 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 4:13:58 PM ty is subjective. |
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Tetramino Male, 13-17, Midwest US
  68 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 4:12:21 PM Tiredofnicks has the right idea here.People get so caught up in trying to strictly define objective "reality" that they forget what "reality" really is: subjective experiences. Why does one story (religion, god, etc.) have to be more or less "true" than another story (science, evolution, and so on.) Because that's what they both are: stories. Science, religion, whatever you use to describe your own reality, give us context. They tell us, "This is how things are. This is where you fit in." That's a really important thing, context is, but too often do people look outward to find context. They look to religious leaders, political leaders, scientists for some kind of grasp of what they should be spending their energy and brainpower on. My point is this: why look outward, when your true meaning, the best context you could possibly have, is inward? Use science to get a grasp on objective reality, yes. But also, don't forget that true reali |
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Turnshroud Female, 18-29, Midwest US
   5353 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 4:10:19 PM Because, we had no understanding of science. We thought there were creatures in the woods, the stars prophetical.We set our beleifs in a book supposedly completely the word of god even when we know it has been revised time and time again |
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akabookoo Male, 13-17, Midwest US
15 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 4:01:14 PM Yes they were able to create the amino acids that are contained in DNA, but they have not been able to form any sort of protocell, which would have been a likely place to start life if you believe in evolution. And what does that fact that there were no scientific advances in the Biblical era have anything to do with this? |
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Turnshroud Female, 18-29, Midwest US
   5353 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 3:48:21 PM Are you talking about the experiment where they produced amino acids? I assumed you were/wiki was refering to that said experimentWhat must be understood is that evolution takes place over billions of billions of years, and in the biblical era there were no scientific advances; there was not even science for that matter, therefore the sciences were not understood or known. |
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akabookoo Male, 13-17, Midwest US
15 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 3:25:45 PM "Mayhaps! Mayhaps it hapened. Mayhaps there is a god. But in order for the it too evolve, it would take billions of years.Furthurmore, this was a mere experiment, which was fairly short" What? |
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Turnshroud Female, 18-29, Midwest US
   5353 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 3:21:23 PM Mayhaps! Mayhaps it hapened. Mayhaps there is a god. But in order for the it too evolve, it would take billions of years.Furthurmore, this was a mere experiment, which was fairly short |
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akabookoo Male, 13-17, Midwest US
15 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 2:45:49 PM I've looked up the information... sorry if this is too difficult a subject for you. And the theory is very unstable at best. I mean, if we haven't been able to reproduce the same things in a laboratory that supposedly happened millions of years ago by natural processes, how could you think it could happen? "As of 2008, no one has yet synthesized a "protocell" using basic components which would have the necessary properties of life" Direct quote from Wikipedia. So how could it have happened by accident if we can't reproduce it at all? |
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Overmann Male, 18-29, Southern US
   3145 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 2:29:21 PM Look it up on wikipedia, akabookoo. Do your own research. Don't outright reject the notion because it sounds unlikely without looking at the chemical background.The first question you should be asking yourself, by the way, is not how life arose from non-organic material, but rather how organic molecules arose from non-organic molecules and then go from there. Start small and simple and work your way up - that is how every form of life on this planet started. |
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akabookoo Male, 13-17, Midwest US
15 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 2:22:56 PM But abiogenesis still says that the first life forms arose from non organic material. How can that be possible? |
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Overmann Male, 18-29, Southern US
   3145 Posts
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Monday, May 19, 2008 2:18:53 PM "I don't see a difference between abiogenesis and spontaneous generation."Like I said, you don't seem to have a well-defined idea of what spontaneous generation was. It referred to a *specific* hypothesis that has since been debunked. It's not a general concept to be applied today. Ditch it, it's meaningless. "Are you saying that the quantity of life arising from life makes the difference between the two?" I said nothing of quantity. Spontaneous generation held that new organisms are generated daily and in modern times while abiogenesis holds that life has only one origin dating billions of years ago. Besides that, the various hypotheses under abiogenesis have chemistry, biology and physics to support its arguments while spontaneous generation was just an observation lacking any scientific merit. The two are simply not equal. |
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