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Feminist Logic [Pic]

Hits: 8318 | Rating: (3.1) | Category: Technology | Added by: Sweepofdeath
Page: 1 2 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
HiEv
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 598 Posts
Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:35:30 PM
Angilion: "The difference is that my description of feminism is accurate and yours is PR spin doctoring that bears no resemblence to anything that happens in reality."

feminism
noun
1: the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men. (Dictionary.com)
2: The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. (Oxford English Dictionary)
3: an organized effort to give women the same economic, social, and political rights as men

HiEv
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 598 Posts
Wednesday, August 06, 2014 3:35:12 PM
(Cambridge Dictionary Online)
4: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
5: Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending a state of equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women. (Wikipedia)

(sarcasm)
Sure, *I'm* the one brainwashed by "PR spin doctoring". Me and the world's dictionaries, that is. It couldn't /possibly/ be YOU that has it wrong.
(/sarcasm)

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11547 Posts
Thursday, July 31, 2014 6:12:40 PM
So yes, they are saying including female players in multiplayer would take too much work/time/money.


Which is not the claim I was replying to. That claim was that there weren't any female characters in the game at all and that female characters and only female characters were not put in because of money.

What they actually said was that adding more characters as playable characters in multiplayer would have added more cost and time (more voice acting, more art, more animation, etc), so they used the player character from the main game.

Had the main character been female, of course, feminists would not have been complaining. Does this feminist complain about the main character in Lara Croft games being female or that you can't play Lara Croft games as a male character? No, of course she doesn't. And neither do you. Or anyone else.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11547 Posts
Thursday, July 31, 2014 6:11:39 PM
Anyway, I do think it's a shame that they've not taken the time to include female characters in the multiplayer. They have made some really cool female characters in the past. Seems like a bizarre decision.


It looks like a case of "get it out on time and not too much over budget" to me. It takes a non-trivial amount of time and money to create a playable character. If it's not going to be used for the main game, it can look like time and money that doesn't have to be spent.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11547 Posts
Thursday, July 31, 2014 6:00:26 PM
Your argument is entirely based upon redefining the word "feminism" as an antonym of its actual meaning.


I would say the same about you. The difference is that my description of feminism is accurate and yours is PR spin doctoring that bears no resemblence to anything that happens in reality.

HiEv
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 598 Posts
Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:32:58 PM
Angilion: "No they didn't."

Yes they did.

The Register - "Women are too expensive to draw and code - Ubisoft"

HiEv: "Any wonder why some females are annoyed at this disparity?"

Angilion: "I'm annoyed about that disparity. Has my sex suddenly changed and I didn't notice it happening?"

(facepalm)

I never said that ONLY females get annoyed at that. Just because I point out that one group gets annoyed by something DOES NOT mean that no other groups can possibly also be annoyed by it.

You have some serious balls to lecture ME about being irrational with idiocy like that drooling out of your skull and onto your keyboard.

HiEv
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 598 Posts
Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:24:08 PM
Angilion: "Also - 'females'? I know that you're a feminist and therefore think that everyone is defined by their sex, but...well, I've answered my own question there. It's such an ugly and irrational way of thinking that it doesn't naturally occur to me."

You? Rational? LOL. Your argument is entirely based upon redefining the word "feminism" as an antonym of its actual meaning.

And no, as I've explained to you before I DO NOT "think that everyone is defined by their sex", I'm just not blind to the fact that there happen to be different sexes and that they're treated unequally in an unfair way.

Recognizing that fact DOES NOT mean that I think it's the "defining characteristic" of anyone.

You refer to people as "he" and "she", does that mean that _YOU_ think that sex is the defining characteristic of those people?!? 'Cause that's the stupid core of what your argument boils down to.

Howler81
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 302 Posts
Thursday, July 31, 2014 11:07:31 AM
(And note how I don't ascribe anyone's misunderstanding Ubisoft's announcements to them being preconditioned to disbelieve anything a feminist says or brag about how I shrugged off such conditioning, because that would come off as incredibly dickish and take on an air of undeserved superiority.)

Anyway, I do think it's a shame that they've not taken the time to include female characters in the multiplayer. They have made some really cool female characters in the past. Seems like a bizarre decision.

Howler81
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 302 Posts
Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:56:06 AM
Angilion, please recheck your facts. There are ( so far) no female characters in the multiplayer - reused or otherwise. They have since tried to emphasize that there are female character in the main storyline, but so far, no multiplayer (for the reasons you mention). So yes, they are saying including female players in multiplayer would take too much work/time/money.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4664 Posts
Thursday, July 31, 2014 7:45:23 AM
HiEv-because it would have been too expensive.

Well, I'm sure the extra physics programming involved with females would be more expensive:


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11547 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 10:35:31 PM
It's not all bad, though. Here's an example from what's probably the best known RPG - Skyrim. This is the best armour in the game.

Daedric Armour in Skyrim

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11547 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 10:28:50 PM
Even when game authors /do/ give you the option to pick a female character, it often ends up like this:

[illustration of the cliched bikini armour]

Any wonder why some females are annoyed at this disparity?



I'm annoyed about that disparity. Has my sex suddenly changed and I didn't notice it happening? No, it doesn't appear to have done so.

Also - "females"? I know that you're a feminist and therefore think that everyone is defined by their sex, but...well, I've answered my own question there. It's such an ugly and irrational way of thinking that it doesn't naturally occur to me.

Yup, feminist logic remains sound logic.


"feminist logic" is an oxymoron. Sexism can't be logical.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11547 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 10:18:42 PM
Actually, her tweet written specifically in response to Ubisoft, who literally claimed exactly that, that they didn't have any female characters in "Assassin's Creed: Unity" because it would have been too expensive.


No they didn't.

Did you think I wouldn't check? I know that we're all conditioned to accept any feminist statement as absolute truth and not even think about checking it, but I beat that conditioning years ago. Not that it matters, since most people still follow it so it's still politically useful.

What they actually said was that they re-used the playable character of that particular game in the story for the multiplayer. Making another one would have cost twice as much and taken longer.

They probably should have done it anyway, but it's not as you described it as being.

Can you play, for example, a Chinese character in that game? Etc.

HiEv
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 598 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 8:19:42 PM
Angilion: "But she's wrong too. There are female characters in games - most games allow players a choice in their avatar and most games have female NPCs."

Actually, her tweet written specifically in response to Ubisoft, who literally claimed exactly that, that they didn't have any female characters in "Assassin's Creed: Unity" because it would have been too expensive.

Even when game authors /do/ give you the option to pick a female character, it often ends up like this:



Any wonder why some females are annoyed at this disparity?

Yup, feminist logic remains sound logic.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11547 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 6:56:39 PM
So I would imagine most men would want a strong male character as the puny guys won't be able to carry all the gear (makes sense)


If you consider the amount of gear that many video game characters carry, it doesn't make sense with anyone unless they're 50' tall :)

I've playing Skyrim at the moment and often carry several sets of torso armour, a few 2H weapons that are about 5 feet long, dozens of bottles, tens of thousands of coins and a sackful of plants, plus the full set of armour, 2H battleaxe and longbow that I use. And then I go swimming with all of it.

Come to think of it, I've forgotten the sex of the character I'm playing because I'm playing an idealised version of myself as a hero and I pick the sex at random when I do that.

AvatarJohn
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 1006 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 12:52:28 PM
And Samus Aran!

diylobotomy
Male, 18-29, Western US
 1828 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 8:53:35 AM
Girls have Lara Croft. What else do they need? She's more badass than 90% of male video game leads.

Jerm_Leather
Male, 18-29, Western US
 885 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:43:49 AM
Most of the modern games I've played offer the option to play as a female lead. Personally, the gender of the character I am playing as never matters much to me unless it is somehow integral to the plot. I assume that gameplay is more important to most gamers than genders. If a franchise with reoccurring characters already has a male lead character then you can't be mad that they aren't scrapping him and putting in a female instead. Furthermore, a similar argument to the one she is making could be made about nearly any product that is marketed to a certain demographic. Makeup, stockings, dresses, etc is used by transgendered people, cross dressing men and drag queens, yet you never see a makeup ad that shows anyone other than a super hot genetically female model or actress using their products. Why? Because the primary demographic is genetic females. As others said it's not intentional bigotry, just those companies playing to their assumed demographic.

beternal
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2396 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 6:02:01 AM
So I would imagine most men would want a strong male character as the puny guys won't be able to carry all the gear (makes sense) - so there we have our male character.

What do we do for the female characters? - if we have a big-breasted hottie many will complain that she portrays an unrealistic impression of femininity. On the other hand, if we make her a 'plain Jane' like Rosie O'Donnell, will ANYONE (a) believe she is capable of that sort of exertion, (b) WANT to play her character (apart from trying to purposefully get her shot at), or (c) be happy that the female character is ugly while all the males are Adonises?

unholydonut
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 74 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 5:39:06 AM
Laura Croft. Nuff said.

JadesDitoyr
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 514 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 5:18:32 AM
I'll be honest, I don't buy may games with female protagonists. I tend to play violent games where the protagonist gets stabbed, shot, beaten, pretty much tortured, and violence against women makes me uncomfortable.

pmarren
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 4382 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 4:34:20 AM
Mr. Pedo Bear Logic: It's okay for her to voice her opinion about games; but it's not okay for others to voice their opinions about her, or her opinion.

Funny, I always thought that once you voice your opinion, you open yourself up to debate about it... that's how discussions begin.

... just my opinion.

Reignblazer
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2236 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:11:31 AM
Shoehorning in poorly written, poorly developed characters just because there was a vocal minority asking for it to be included? No thanks. Experience has taught me that trying to please everyone only succeeds at pleasing no one.

I don't blame developers for catering to their main audience which is still predominantly male.
That's something this woman's just going to have to deal with until women are the majority of gamers.

SmagBoy1
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4243 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:49:17 AM
Part of how you get things to change, too, is to point out disparity. If, say, even 20% of gamers are female and they would like to see a female lead in a game, and would buy it, it might be profitable for a company, might not. Or, perhaps a game with a choice of male or female? I'd say that "Last of Us" starts to head toward striking a good balance. But it's the same in movies, too. Women make up more than 50% of the viewers, but play less than 20% of the leads. Why? Well, people keep paying for the games/movies that have mostly male leads.

So, this girl says something about it. She doesn't have the power to change it completely by herself, but she says stuff about it. What's the big deal? Is your manhood so threatened that you can't take someone asking for change? Damn.

Reignblazer
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2236 Posts
Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:30:40 AM
No. Keep your political correctness out of my games.

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