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Hits: 4581 | Rating: (1.6) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: skypirate
Page: 1 2 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
monkeyspankn
Male, 60-69, Southern US
 183 Posts
Tuesday, July 29, 2014 10:35:57 AM
That was quite an exchange and I can say the this subject has been discussed. "It was not only merely discussed, it was really most sincerely discussed" a Munchkin coroner might say.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 10:48:26 PM
elkingo

I think a reasonable person could read it either way.

"Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, and other felony involving the use of force."

I take it as "involving the use of force" clarifying the kind burglary or robbery that counts.

If not then there is no sense for two separate sections for force and deadly force. The deadly force section covers it alone the way you interpret it.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 10:45:37 PM
elkingo

"However, if I said, "I allow cigarettes, cigars, and pipes that only contain cloves instead of tobacco on my porch." I would expect your cigarette to be a Djarum (clove cigarette)."

Ahhh. Yes. But you can allow lots of thing simultaneouly. This is in reference to a crime and or is used because any one of them can be commiteed. If "and" was used it would imply you had to commit all three.

"Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, and other felony involving the use of force..."

Right?

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 10:33:27 PM
To me, "or" is a distinguishing word.

If I said, "I allow cigarettes, cigars, or pipes that only contain cloves instead of tobacco on my porch."

I sure wouldn't be pissed when you whipped out a Marlboro.

However, if I said, "I allow cigarettes, cigars, and pipes that only contain cloves instead of tobacco on my porch." I would expect your cigarette to be a Djarum (clove cigarette).

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 10:30:53 PM
"Would you read that as I like ham sandwiches? Or just sandwiches with peanut butter?"

Then you should have used the conjunction "and" for it to be inclusive.

I would read that as you enjoy all sammiches, including ham.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 10:28:34 PM
elkingo

"You didn't read the law... "

I read it. I read it differently than you. To me that says any one of those three things where force is used.

For example:

I like sandwiches, cookies, or other food with peanut butter in them.

Would you read that as I like ham sandwiches? Or just sandwiches with peanut butter?


elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 10:22:43 PM
You didn't read the law... it says "The use of deadly physical force by a defendant is justifiable under subsection 1 only when the defendant believes that the person against whom such force is used:

(b) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, or other felony involving the use of force..."

So, the criminal can commit a robbery or something else. Key word in the law "or".

It doesn't have to be "and".

In other words, just committing or attempting to commit a robbery justifies the use of deadly physical force.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 10:08:26 PM
elkingo

"I meant to say that KRS 503.080 includes deadly force"

Gotcha. But deadly force does not just list theft. Force does. Deadly force says it has to include force. So stealing without the use of force is NOT grounds to kill someone. At least how I'm reading the law.

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 10:01:43 PM
92-Year-Old WWII Vet Shoots and Kills Home Intruder: ‘As Soon as He Got Inside, It Was All Over’

Jones faced no charges for killing one of those thiefs.

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:56:04 PM
That is to say my mother and father protect their home with an AR-17. My mom uses an .22 rifle.

They don't live with me. They have their own home.

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:54:55 PM
But yea... try and rob a house in Kentucky.. you may end up dead.

Even trespassing (felony trespass involving force), you might end up dead.

I personally protect my home with a bush-axe first (my wife swings that), and a 12 gauge shot-gun second. My dad uses an AR-17.

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:51:46 PM
"Physical force in Kentucky includes deadly force."

I see the confusion.. I meant to say that KRS 503.080 includes deadly force. Lol.. sorry its late. I am only wake to monitor my sick baby. =)

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:49:58 PM
"Then why even have the second set of more strict circumstances?"

It covers the same things... theft, burglary,etc... section 2.b.

It is worded that way so that one can't argue that the law doesn't state that deadly force is covered.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:44:12 PM
elkingo

"Physical force in Kentucky includes deadly force."

Then why even have the second set of more strict circumstances?

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:43:32 PM
Read the law I linked.. section two covers it.

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:42:39 PM
Physical force in Kentucky includes deadly force.

I asked two state troopers and a lawyer to be sure.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:38:53 PM
elkingo

"The use of physical force"

Ahhhh. Yes. But the law has different circumstances for DEADLY physical force, which obviously a gun would be.

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:34:41 PM
We thought that was bullpoo, so we worded it like this instead:

The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent: criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony ...

Here is that actual law: KRS 503.080

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:32:53 PM
elkingo

"Basically, if they are on the county road with your belongings, and you are armed, you have the right to shoot to kill, without warning them."

I can't possibly believe that. Can you shoot me a link? Google isn't helping.

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:30:00 PM
The law used to read if someone was breaking into your home, once inside you had to warn them three times before using lethal force that you felt in danger.

For example:
1. "I am loading my shot gun with shells because I feel threatened."

2. "I am pumping my shot gun to load the chamber because I feel threatened."

3. "I am now pointing my loaded shot gun at you because you are threatening me. Please leave my house."

Under the old laws, you would be allowed to shoot to kill after saying those three things *IF* the intruder was inside your home.


elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:24:34 PM
Basically, if they are on the county road with your belongings, and you are armed, you have the right to shoot to kill, without warning them.

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:23:41 PM
"If someone steals a plastic flamingo out of your yard you can run out and shoot them to death in the street?"

Yup.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:14:13 PM
elkingo

"Not in Kentucky. We changed it so that if you see someone in the road with your stuff, you can legally shoot to kill."

Seriously? What's the line? Is there one?

If someone steals a plastic flamingo out of your yard you can run out and shoot them to death in the street?

elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3656 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 9:06:45 PM
"That's the law right?"

Not in Kentucky. We changed it so that if you see someone in the road with your stuff, you can legally shoot to kill.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Monday, July 28, 2014 8:21:59 PM
"the woman fell after being struck by Greer's gunfire in an alley behind the house."

Did that change?

Nobody has the right to shoot someone fleeing, outside of their house. You cannot use deadly force for vengeance or defense of property.

That's the law right?

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