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10 Reasons To Ban Gay Marriage [Pic]

Hits: 7846 | Rating: (2.8) | Category: Community & Lifestyle | Added by: iansquall
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 79 10 11 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
piratefish
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 659 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:24:44 PM
@HumanAction:

Seriously, you may want to look at the history and thought behind the concept of natural and inalienable rights. It goes back well over 2,500 years, and has been supported by thousands of very bright people from various societies and points in history. There is actually a very sound logical and philosophical basis to it (and even a religious one, as well). It is very unlikely that you know more than everyone who has contributed to this particular idea over the millennia.

To claim that this concept is, in fact, a logical fallacy demonstrates a staggering level of ignorance on the topic.

It is impossible to have a discussion about logic when one doesn't even have a grasp on the subject matter being used as a premise.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24965 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:18:37 PM
You may want to look into the whole history and thought behind natural and inalienable rights...


Oh? Is "marriage" on the list? Which KIND of marriage? Eh?

A group of people are being denied equal treatment by law.

You mean heterosexuals? Because heteros do NOT have a "right" to marriage...

Again I ask, when did you prove "marriage" is a "human right"?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:15:17 PM
@piratefish

Look, I get that you're butthurt here. Hey, you thought you were the IAB King of Logic (KoA) and got a little embarrassed. Well what did you honestly expect?

I mean, so far you've:

1. Claimed some mystical force grants us rights;
2. Use the definition of natural rights from a law to explain why laws don't define rights (hilarious, btw);
3. Told everyone how awesome you are (several times);
4. Refused to define your arguments;
5. Refused to address rebuttals of your definitions.

Maybe you jumped the gun on this. Maybe you were unprepared. I don't know. Either way, furiously typing about how awesome you are at logic and how nobody else understands you isn't really a good argument.

piratefish
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 659 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:14:56 PM
@5cats:

"We've both agreed that SOME marriages are denied or ruled invalid, legitimately, based on LAWS, correct?"

Again, try to follow this time, I am talking about rights, NOT laws. They are two totally separate things.

A group of people are being denied equal treatment by law. That is an infringement on natural rights. It's really a very simple concept: we all are born with the right to equal protection and privileges under the law until we do something (like commit a crime) to have those protections revoked.

In the U.S., our Constitution was written to PROTECT our natural rights, NOT grant them.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24965 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:14:41 PM
You may want to look into the whole history and thought behind natural and inalienable rights...


Oh? Is "marriage" on the list?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:11:31 PM
@piratefish

The notion that rights are natural and inalienable is NOT a logical fallacy of any kind

Just Because Fallacy.

piratefish
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 659 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:08:18 PM
@HumanAction:

"Special Pleading. Let me know when we can be done with this please."

I rest my case. This is exactly why I don't want to debate logic with someone who has no education in it nor understanding of it.

The notion that rights are natural and inalienable is NOT a logical fallacy of any kind, no matter how many logical fallacy lists you look up on the internet.

It is not fait accompli, it is not special pleading, and it most certainly is not argument from ignorance. You may want to look into the whole history and thought behind natural and inalienable rights before you start invoking some terms you looked up on the internet.

It's like using a medical dictionary to try to convince a doctor you're on the same level as her, or a law dictionary to convince an attorney you went to law school. You're not interpreting or applying them correctly, but you don't know any better than to be embarrassed for it.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24965 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:05:41 PM
that inalienable, natural rights are ignorant.


When have you demonstrated that "marriage" is an "inalienable right"?

We've both agreed that SOME marriages are denied or ruled invalid, legitimately, based on LAWS, correct?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:05:09 PM
@piratefish

Are they also as ignorant as I am?

My God; do you really not know what the appeal to ignorance fallacy is? Yet you preach to me about logic. Fantastic.

The argument I quoted was an appeal to ignorance. You cannot explain where we get these rights from, so you merely conclude that 'they just exist in nature by virtue of our birth'.

It's even in our Constitution.

Appeal to authority. You're on a roll. I like how you're using the Constitution (a law) to explain how laws (like the Constitution) don't define rights.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24965 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:03:00 PM
The truth is, I can go to the court house and get married to the person I love...


Really @patchouly? Anyone? ANY person? No? There are in fact, restrictions?

Well, gosh golly...

piratefish
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 659 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 5:01:35 PM
@HumanAction:

"'They are not dependent on the recognition of a government or other groups; they just exist in nature by virtue of our birth.'

Argument from ignorance. Could also be fait accompli."

Have you ever read the Constitution? That is EXACTLY the argument on which our forefathers based the entire document. Are they also as ignorant as I am?

And also, I am curious to know how you have concluded that inalienable, natural rights are ignorant. A lot of very smart people completely disagree with you on that one. I seriously doubt you are smarter and wiser than the likes of Mills, Bentham, Franklin, Jefferson, Kante, and any number of hundreds of other philosophers, sociologists, or even most of the founding members of our nation. The idea of natural, inalienable rights have been around far longer than either one of us has been alive, and it has been endorsed by some pretty brilliant minds. It's even in our Constitution.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:59:53 PM
@piratefish

a fundamental right we are born with

Special Pleading. Let me know when we can be done with this please.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24965 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:58:49 PM
One can have a right, yet the law can (and historically often does) deny that right. Get it?


Yes, I got that from square one.

So denying homo-rights is bad, and they should change the laws = @piratefish argument.

But heteros don't have that 'right' = @5Cats' observation.

Do YOU 'get it' now? You're arguing that the laws should change based on human rights, but you've failed to notice that other groups (heteros) do NOT enjoy such rights, so... why?

What's your solution? "Open Season" for marriage?

piratefish
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 659 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:53:47 PM
"This has nothing to do with the semantics you guys are tossing around. The truth is, I can go to the court house and get married to the person I love; but in some places, someone else can not. Simple as that. One person is being denied the same privilege that I have."

Exactly! LAW has encroached upon a fundamental right we are born with, and the right to equal treatment.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:52:05 PM
@piratefish

Sadly, you sound more ignorant than smug. Either way, so be it.

"They are not dependent on the recognition of a government or other groups; they just exist in nature by virtue of our birth."

Argument from ignorance. Could also be fait accompli.

piratefish
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 659 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:51:35 PM
@5cats:

*sigh*

Have you not been paying attention to anything I have said?

Laws and rights have nothing to do with each other. They are NOT the same thing.

One can have a right, yet the law can (and historically often does) deny that right. Get it? It's not that tough of a concept.

And yes, heterosexual couples do occasionally get denied the right to marry - I'm not that naive. These (obvious) cases would be where they are too young, too closely related, or in very rare circumstances, have already been married to each other too many times before. (I personally know a couple who are on their 4th marriage to each other - yes, they have married 4 times and divorced each other 3 times. The state informed them on their last marriage that it will no longer issue a marriage license to them to remarry each other if they divorce this time. However, I suspect another state may still issue one - who knows for sure).

patchouly
Male, 40-49, Canada
 4568 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:50:16 PM
This has nothing to do with the semantics you guys are tossing around. The truth is, I can go to the court house and get married to the person I love; but in some places, someone else can not. Simple as that. One person is being denied the same privilege that I have.

RytWing
Male, 30-39, Western US
 316 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:46:10 PM

Polygamy here we come!

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24965 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:45:45 PM
But do we have to call it 'marriage'? Can we call it a 'civil union' or something?


@mykunter: No. The homosexualist lobby REFUSES that option.
What you describe should be implemented for all citizens: A separation of Church Marriage and State Marriage, eh?

Unfortunately few people understand that it's 'de facto' that way right now. You aren't "legally married" until you fill out the Government paperwork, correct?

And yes, lots of other "special interest groups" are waiting for legalization too...

piratefish
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 659 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:44:36 PM
@HumanAction:

"Are you really sure you want to go down the road of logical fallacies with me?"

Not to sound roostery, but based on a number of your statements, it's obvious you don't have the education to "go down that road" with me - at least not where formal logic is concerned.

I really don't want it to sound so smug, but after reading your comments, it is pretty obvious you have never studied the principles of logic, or if you have, you certainly don't understand them.

But that's perfectly okay, I know there are plenty of topics you could go circles around me on - this just isn't one of them. Formal logic is a very complex discipline that people earn PhDs in; it's not a seat of the pants topic - there are very specific rules to it, and what you have written so far demonstrates that you do not know even the most basic rules. I'm afraid a debate on logic with you would be totally pointless.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24965 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:42:09 PM
*sigh*
@PirateFish: Are you just being obnoxious?

You said "marriage is a right"
Then you said "denying homo- marriage violates their human rights"
Then you said: But some hetero-marriages are denied

So what is it? A right which cannot be denied? Or something else which has valid reasons for society (laws) to regulate?

Your claim, as made, is that homosexuals cannot justifiably be denied their 'right to marriage' but heterosexuals can. Simple.

If you're claiming that homosexuals and heterosexuals should have "equal" (identical) rights? Then homo- marriages should be subject to applicable laws, until such time as those laws are amended.

As well as several other groups besides gays, right?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:42:07 PM
@piratefish

Before I go any further on this, I want you to define a natural right. So far, you seem to making it up on the spot to suit your argument.

1. Where do natural rights come from?
2. How are they granted?
3. Can rights be added or removed?
3b. If so, through what mechanism?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:40:03 PM
@mykunter

How do you all feel about polygamy?

I'm fine with it. Of course, I also think that, if we're going to have an income tax, then it should be applied to the individual. I don't understand how being married should change the way taxes are assessed against your income.

piratefish
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 659 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:38:15 PM
@HumanAction:

"Again, you're confusing 'is' with 'should be'."

Okay, do you think that is what should be defining of a right? AND do you think that's what does (is) define a right?

Careful, because our Constitution (which all laws are subject to measure) says the law CANNOT define a right. At least not in the US.

And this is precisely why we're having this discussion: because current laws are infringing upon natural rights.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, March 14, 2014 4:37:40 PM
@piratefish

Are you really sure you want to go down the road of logical fallacies with me?

Remember, your entire premise is that 'nature did it' (See: God did it).

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