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Minimum Wage Argument [Pic]

Hits: 8538 | Rating: (3.1) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: patchouly
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 79 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
onoffonoffon
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2171 Posts
Wednesday, December 18, 2013 12:08:10 AM
Tell'em Andrew! A minimum wage discourages excellence and punishes the middle class. The middle class is made up of people who were lower class who moved up, not upper class who moved down. Raising the pay scale for the entry level unfairly diminishes the spending power of the middle class thereby reducing the benefits of their hard work to get to the middle class. The upper class will gladly have the majority squeezed by the inflationary practices of the government which further differentiates them from the "riff raff."

madduck
Female, 50-59, Europe
 6027 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 11:15:09 PM
Nowt wrong with a living wage. Pure corporate greed paying absolute minimum for so many jobs. Our current economic system does not work anyway- so lets find something that does actually work.

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 11:02:47 PM
You see, it's of the utmost importance for an economic recovery for wages to fall. In an ideal world, before Keynesianism, prices would fall too. This is called deflation, and it wasn't inherently bad until it became a boogeyman. Now 2% yearly inflation is mandatory - and they claim that doesn't affect the poor.

But this is what is key, and this is why 1933 was the worst year one could implement labor price controls.

If wages fall, unemployment falls. Once unemployment is healthy, there is no longer an excess supply of unskilled labor. They can then negotiate higher salaries. The economy resets itself naturally.

So, the way you get higher wages is more jobs, not labor price controls. There is simply too much unskilled labor out there. This is why Walmart in booming North Dakota is paying many $15-18/hr who could be making minimum elsewhere. They lack unskilled labor. They have no employment crisis.

Twinklestein
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 406 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 10:58:31 PM
There is an overall problem with raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour. No, McDonalds won't raise their $1 burger to $5. They will raise it to $1.50. Then a month or so to $1.75. It will go up slowly without a general outcry because we are like a frog in a frying pan. Drop it in when the pan is hot and it jumps out. Put it in and slowly raise the temperature and it will fry without having a clue. The perceived necessity of raising the minimum wage is a direct result of prices going up due to inflation and other economic factors. (gas prices, anyone?)
Also, does anyone here honestly think that if the minimum wage nearly doubles overnight think that everyone making minimum wage will all have their jobs the next day? Not a chance. And those of us making more than the new minimum, there is zero percent chance of most businesses giving us any kind of pay increase to compensate. People making only a bit more than $15 an hour will be very screwed in this situation.

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 10:54:17 PM
No, the Middle Class was not created by the minimum wage. It was created by simple commerce and a free society negotiating labor costs. Living standards, not factoring in technological advances, increased faster from 1865 to the 1920s than any time since - without labor price controls.

The first minimum wage was enacted in 1933. This certainly prolonged the employment crisis.

In this survey of Economists, 75% indicated that it increased unemployment among the unskilled and the young.

Germany didn't have a real minimum wage until this past election they had. The key to economic prosperity is not labor price controls.

Dead-Kittens
Male, 30-39, Canada
 986 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 10:38:00 PM
Lack of wage adjustments = Walmart wins everything.

Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
 33911 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 10:31:35 PM

Why is a minimum wage bad? There was a time when there were very poor and very rich with little in between. The Minimum Wage created a middle class. Capable of buying goods and stimulating an economy.

If you {likely} are middle class you owe your station in life to the minimum wage. If you're in favor of getting rid of it, you better be happy existing on $2 a week wage.

No, I don't want it to make anyone rich. It's a starting point, not a career-level-pay. But it hasn't been raised in a long time but the cost of eating has increased.

jops360
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 612 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:51:10 PM
andrew-
they dont run those 8 isles because they cant hire. they do that to keep you in the store longer. they want you there to spend money and they tempt you even at the register while waiting.
also did you really read my post? people hate talking to machines. do you like automatic phone service? do you no try to talk to a real person? now imagine that at mcdonalds. lines would be down the block due to computer error or people not using the right dialect. business would slow to a halt and then they would be forced to hire just to stay in business. there will always be poo jobs. just now they will get payed better. anyways im more inclined to make them hire at full time compared to part time. this way we dont get screwed with the whole insurance/retirement side of the problem.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4777 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:40:29 PM
jops360-"it not cost effective?"

For the most part, untrained labor at the current minimum wage is cheaper and more versatile.

BUT, raise labor costs, and will not be cheaper.

jops360-"face it, min wage needs to go up"

Sorry, that is an incorrect statement. Minimumm wage is set as training wheels. What you pay untrained workers to learn work skills (some of which never learn).

Raise the minimum wage to $15 and two things happen:
1) A percent of the jobs are eliminated to help cover the increased cost of labor.
2) The ones currently working the remaining jobs will be displaced by more able and harder workers who are willing to work at even Walmart for $15 an hour.

Conclusion: 90+% of the workers corrently in minimum wage jobs would be unemployed. Net result will be MORE people on welfare.

jops360
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 612 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:40:04 PM
what we need is someone with no ties to the mega rich to pass some laws. right now all we have are rich people helping rich people keep more money, all while telling us that the poor are to blame.

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:39:07 PM
Look, you can't force businesses to be generous, as noble as it is. Every argument I'm making ASSUMES they are greedy. If they are greedy and want a 5% profit, they are not going to take the money for the minimum wage hike from their "money bags". They will raise their prices, they will fire people, they will replace them with machines. And mind you, raising prices in all business negates the effect of the minimum wage. They have a number of solutions for it. And if we assume they truly are greedy, they will easy not have to take it from their "money bags".

Plus, a small business won't be able to pay the 16 year old down the street $15/hr. His labor isn't worth that.

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:35:29 PM
You stumbled on the answer correctly, businesses have calculated that $7.25 is a wage at which all the machines are not quite justified.

However - the machines are already taking over at that wage. There aren't many cashiers at my supermarket, they are automated. One person supervises 8 check out stations. ATMs are another example.

People would prefer to talk to another person, and certainly some business would elect to invest more in human labor, especially if it were cheap. Chick Fil-A does this, their workers act like waiters at times. But for fast food restaurant like McDonalds, people would PREFER more machines.

And it will happen, it already has been happening at a $7.25. Imagine $15.

Raising the minimum wage to $15 will not take people off of welfare. The real minimum wage is $0, which is what some people will be making because of it, and they will certainly be on welfare.

jops360
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 612 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:35:10 PM
supply and demand. this alone will dictate prices. prices will only go up if demand goes up. do you really think that if mcdonalds is forced to pay $15 that their burgers would go from $1 to $5? who would pay? would you? no. they have already figured out what they can sell for and this wont change. yes, some things will go up but when dont they? the only thing hurting inflation is the rich. since they possess over 25% of all wealth and they constantly bypass our tax code money has no where to go but up. with more money needed to be put into the system to make up for the difference this raises inflation and makes our money worth less. this is the reason we are all hurting right now.

jops360
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 612 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:21:14 PM
also, you want people off of welfare? then raise min wage and then they might make enough to not qualify. you want them to get off food stamps? allow them to make enough to PAY for food. you think that inflation would just go up to make the matter moot? then actually be against things that raise it like trust fund loophole that take billions out of the tax system. next time think before you "know" the answer. people are getting screwed everyday. they are the ones that are forced into low paying jobs because people like you believe just because its easy does not mean they dont deserve a living wage. guess what, just because its easy does not mean it labor free. they work harder than most people can believe. they are on their feet all day dealing with the most irate people out there for next to nothing. they have to, not because they have no talent, because there no no real jobs left. those days are long gone. wake up and smell the desolation of todays workforce.

WhoSaidWhat
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 198 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:12:58 PM
There's also another way to look at it. If minimum wage is raised, the price of goods and services will also go up. As an example:

You work for a local refinery, which supplies fuel to the surrounding areas. You, along with several other workers, are working for minimum wage. (Not realistic, I know, but work with me here.) Minimum wage is raised. In order to make payroll, the refinery has to raise their prices for fuel. The farm down the road has to raise their prices for produce, because they have to pay their workers more, and pay more for fuel to deliver their produce. You now have to pay more for groceries, as well as for fuel to get back and forth to work and to the store to buy the higher priced produce. You're right back where you started.

That is, of course, really simplified and unrealistic, but (should) gets the point across.

jops360
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 612 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:09:07 PM
andrew -
business are not stupid. you claim that robots will take over but why dont they just do that now? is it not cost effective? they would easily make their money back within 2 years. no, its because no mater how slow or stupid they might be, people want to talk to other people. they want someone to take their order and they want someone to complain to when they get it wrong.yes raising min wage would get rid of a few jobs but supply and demand would dictate just how many they need to stay afloat and guess what, they already use this to make sure they maximize profits. thats why they screw over their workers by not offering full time status and hire at min wage. whats next. prices will go up? when have they not? and if they dont sizes go down. people will only pay so much for a crappy burger so they are screwed there as well. face it, min wage needs to go up. they are no where near where they need to be in contrast to inflation but you should already know this.

Dead-Kittens
Male, 30-39, Canada
 986 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:21:30 PM
@Andrew the flaw in that is students/youth will hold all the jobs because they are dependents thus able to work for less, while the age of majority who families depend on their wages have no additional value for higher pay. Lets not even start on how it affects the income/tuition ratio. Someone has to get their hands dirty ...the absolute hardest and dirtiest jobs I know pay absolute crap.

RytWing
Male, 30-39, Western US
 316 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:15:03 PM
This is an argument made by deceitful politicians looking for an easy vote. Of course it sounds good to a minimum wage worker. They are the uninformed voter.
The deceitful preying on the ignorant with no thought for the actual implications of such actions.

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 7:54:57 PM
Let's say I'm a 23 year old who can't find a job because the youth unemployment rate is 50% for my age group - imagine a Spain-like situation.

Well, because the minimum wage is $15, new opportunities are few and far-between. Many of them will be snatched up by people with connections, people who know people.

So what can I do? In a free society, I would be able to price my labor not at $15 dollars, but at $10. If all positions were priced at a minimum $10 instead of $15, there would be more available. But maybe not enough. So I would lower the price of my labor to $8, if that doesn't work, $6. At that level, the price of my labor will probably equal the amount of value I bring and I will be hired. I will be able to prove myself - potentially for later increases.

But this can't happen. It is against the law to sell your labor at $6/hr. Even for a 23 year old who can live reasonably well on it as a starter wage.

ajd121
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 602 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 7:36:35 PM
Couldn't that also be said by people who are unemployed or have been laid off due to the minimum wage hikes.

Zed68
Male, 40-49, Europe
 977 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 7:26:38 PM
Communists !!!

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 7:25:47 PM
Since LBJ's Great Society in the 60s, you guys have spent over 16 trillion on government social programs to fight poverty. Poverty stopped declining shortly after the Great Society and the Keynesian policies that came with it.

That government money did not trickle down. Your trickle down Keynesianism doesn't work.

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 7:24:35 PM
See, more emotion. They keep deflecting from the Economics-based arguments for it. Once again, you can't pay a fast food worker 15 dollars an hour. They will fire half of them, a machine will take your order. A machine will make almost the entire burger. It's not rocket science.

Jops, yes, the government is stupid. The government is making those rules, that's on them. By the way, many of those deductions are for things like Green energy. Everyone had a hernia when GE paid no taxes recently. GE makes solar panels and many Green energy things. That's how. You guys push forward these things and complain when they reap the benefit. Oil companies also get breaks for developing alternative energy.

But not everyone with a business is rich, so stop with that argument.

The primary culprit of current income inequality is Quantitative Easing and ZIRP. 85 billion a month to the rich. That's on you, the Keynesians.

jops360
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 612 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 7:15:25 PM
twinkle - but wouldnt the increase be added to everyone just like the cost of living increase we received?

Twinklestein
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 406 Posts
Tuesday, December 17, 2013 6:57:54 PM
Most of the people I hear saying the minimum wage increase is a bad thing are making just slightly more than what the increase would be. Which is fair because they would be the hardest hit.

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