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Minimum Wage Argument [Pic]

Hits: 8538 | Rating: (3.1) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: patchouly
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4668 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:32:16 PM
Musuko42-"That's the kind of undercutting that lead to unions and the like to stop it."

Yes, let's make the workplace infinitely worse by introducing unions into it.

Musuko42-"Undercutting your fellow worker is bad for all workers in the long run."

1) it's a fact that you're not going to be able to change.
2) it's not bad, due to the fact that those 'various reasons' are perfectly viable reasons. (such as, just want a job to pick up a little extra money, want to work part time while kids are in school,etc)

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4668 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:32:00 PM
Musuko42-
"1: there aren't enough places on the top of the ladder for everyone. "
"2: we're always going to need people at the bottom of the ladder. "

& 3: with a little effort you can work you way up a few rungs.
& 4: with a lot of effort you can make it up quite a lot of the rungs.

Musuko42="Show me a company where there's a 1:1 ratio of workers and managers/executives"

If I did that, I'd be showing you a failed company. The point you're avoiding is that you can actually be quite successful as a worker, also. I'm not in management, but neither am I pushing a mop (although some people make good money pushing mops). I'm in a position I created for myself.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4668 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:30:46 PM
Musuko42-"could be making sure that ALL jobs are worthwhile and fulfilling"

Because there are some jobs that are just not fulfilling.

Musuko42-"can pay well if you work hard at it?"

See, now you're discriminating on those that don't want to work hard.

Musuko42-"No, that's not true at all."

Actually, it's more often true than it's not. The only people who are stuck with minimum wage is; 1) unskilled labor just entering entry-level jobs for the experience & 2) unskilled label that are still stuck in entry-level jobs because they remain unskilled. (this does not count wait staff who, while technically are paid less than min wage, if they're any good actually make much more than minimum wage).

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4668 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:30:21 PM
Musuko42-"if you had won that competition"

Correction: "Earned that advancement".

Musuko42-"every other employee there loses out"

BS, by that time 95% of the employees would have moved on to better jobs. Pizza delivery is not a freakin career.

I was paid more than minimum wage because I put in more effort. Other workeers ALSO made more than minimum wage for thier effort. Quite a few were only paid minimum wage only because it was against the law to pay them less.

Those that put in the effort, made more. Those that were just biding their time, didn't. Not counting the existing managers, you turn over the entire crew in a year or two. Everyone who wanted to went on to better jobs. The couple that were still there were because they didn't want to put the effort into developing their workskills.

Phosphoreign
Male, 30-39, Western US
 294 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:16:25 PM
I think it is sad that in America today success is considered a sign of poor character... like every successful business, every successful business owner is just sitting on a massive pile of cash and their just big meanies who won't share.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 11:06:13 AM
@Musuko

How is it beyond the understanding of us all to realise that the economy is there to serve the needs of man, and not the other way around?

What utter and complete nonsense. The "economy" doesn't exist in such a capacity; it's no more than a collection of actions and decisions made by other people. The economy is people. An economy sans people doesn't exist.

You're suggesting that some people exist to serve the needs of other people, which is a terrifying belief structure given ample consideration.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4668 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:34:28 AM
Musuko42-"What's stopping us changing the design?"

The very fact that there is a certain portion of the workforce that does not contribute enough to warrent a living wage.

And also the fact that there is a significant portion of the workforce THAT WILL WILLINGLY work for less than a living wage, for various reasons. I didn't NEED a living wage in college, I needed enough to pay for books and gas.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4668 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:33:59 AM
Musuko42-"where you can succeed and earn more in ANY job, depending on how you work/perform?"

I haven't said you have to find a 'certain' job. And you CAN inprove your lot ANY job, by proving you're worth more.

In college I delivered pizza's. I stayed at minimum wage for exactly two weeks, because I proved that I was willing to deliver pizza, clean up, run errands, repair the oven, would work extra hours if needed, and would willingly do anything that needed to be done, many times without having to be asked. I MADE myself valuable to them.

With a little more effort and time, I could have managed the store...but was not what I wanted.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4668 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:30:55 AM
Musuko42-"Why such emphasis on effort?"

Yes, I guess effort was not the ideal word. After all, a guy pushing 5 lbs of force on the lift-handle of a forklift has much better results than a guy pushing 5 lbs of force on a stapler.

In this case, by 'effort' I meant work ethic, improving oneself and actually showing up for work.

Musuko42-"I abhor the notion that everyone has to climb the ladder,"

Putting in the effort to make more than minimum wage is harldy 'climbing a ladder'. You actively have to suck to stay stuck at min wage.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4668 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:56:25 AM
jops360-"right now min wage pays only $16000/yr before taxes"

Which is a stat that means absolutely nothing as min wage WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO BE A LIVING WAGE. It's for high-school kids. If you're 40 and still making min wage, the issue is not with the system.

jops360-"i am more in favor of forcing a full time status:"

So you would FORCE those that DO NOT WANT full time out of a job? How heartless.
Not to menition most businesses only require a certain amount of man-hours a week. If it only requires 400 man hours a week to man a business, you can hire 10 workers at full time (or fewer and pay overtime) instead of the 20 working 20 hours. Congratulations, you just increased unemployement.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4668 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:55:20 AM
normalfreak2-"You make it seem like there's only Hard work and no luck"

I make it seem no such way. I stated that MY situation was not attributed to luck, it involved sacrifice, hard work and self-improvement. Whereas patchouly states ONLY luck is involved if anyone is more successful than he is.

normalfreak2-"Not everyone has the gumption nor the ability to do that."

That is their issue..and the same people are more likely to say that others were just 'lucky'. Sorry, in real life, not everyone gets a trophy for competing.

normalfreak2-"Call me a bleeding heart but I think everyone deserves a liveable wage."

Even though not everyone is willing to put in the effort to earn it? Funny that.

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12401 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:54:10 AM
At least, this holiday season try to mend bridges between family members and reach out to family and friends and people in your community that are in need. Employees, try to perform beyond your wage level. Employers and capital providers, you have to think with your heart. Not because companies with soul do better or some slogan like that, but because is is the right thing to do.

OK, I'm all ranted out now. I hope this at least explains my neither liberal nor conservative politics and my frequent rants about American/ European society. Despite my lack of religion, I have a strong intuitive moral code and I genuinely wish everyone happiness, peace, goodwill and prosperity.

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12401 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:46:49 AM
The first step is to drop the nationalistic bravado and the Maury "I can do what I want" attitude that is so prevalent in culture today. No society is perfect, but we can all learn from other countries that do certain things better than our own.

Please drop the pretence, look around and change the way we speak about politics and society. It has to happen on an individual basis. If we as a global society do not get our act together we will be heading for more pain and an eventual hard reset.

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12401 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:42:14 AM
What has to chance is society and its culture. People must take care of their own extended family and friends. Recipients of benefits must learn to appreciate charity.

I have seen with my own eyes people in poorer parts of the world who still understand about community and get by with a lot less than we in the developed world have.

Please don't dismiss this as "Liberalism", "Socialism", "Communism", or "Unfettered Capitalism". It is none of these. We have to keep an open mind and change.

Likewise don't simply dismiss me as an America hater. My concern isn't limited to America. I so want everyone to return to prosperity, for people to care for those in need and for society to be fair but motivated.

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12401 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:36:33 AM
The flaw in the argument against a minimum wage and welfare is that the American culture/society does not support immediate family to the extent that it does in other parts of the world. Everyone is pursuing their own American Dream and those that aren't pursuing it so well feel entitled to governmental support.

That's why society has to change. Firstly, there will always be rich and poor, because (except for certain national exceptions) there is no sustainable way to level society and still prosper. Greed and the intent to benefit one's own family is human nature.

Secondly, the balance between rich and poor must be struck so as to reduce the wealth gap. Social mobility must be increased. Legislating employers is more palatable than legislating against wealth. Neither would be particularly effective in America's case.

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12401 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:27:13 AM
My point is legislating a minimum wage (let alone raising it to satisfy short term political gains)is fraught with problems of implementation and consequence.

I would like to see all my employees earn not only a legislated minimum wage, but to have a good lifestyle and upward mobility. I hire poor people with little education and give them security and a fair wage and upward potential. None of my many staff have a college degree. All earn significantly over the minimum, but not all industries can afford to do so.

Unfortunately the answer has to be to provide some mechanism for workers who cannot perform to the minimum wage to find a less remunerative way to make money. It is illogical for society to squander these labour resources. Welfare should be reserved for those that are unable to work and whose immediate and extended families are unable to support them.

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12401 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:17:15 AM
It's hard to make the minimum wage work. You have to find a way to prevent capital and talent leaving. You can't achieve a homogenous global market without levelling inequalities between rich and poor nations.

Perhaps you may have to prevent people moving from poor areas to wealthy areas and set different minimum wages.

The measures described in this post are some of the tenents of global communism which failed spectacularly.

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12401 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:01:54 AM
If these assumptions below break down and unemployed people do not emigrate, but are allowed to claim welfare, then:

Increased minimum wages will have caused inflation so that the welfare costs per person increase, or the quality of living possible on welfare decreases. Furthermore the number of unemployed claiming welfare rises.

Therefore: If welfare spending increases to support the unemployed then debt rises to its limit and/or increased taxes are levied, penalising holders of capital and/or other contributors to the economy such as productive people and productive companies.

So an increase in taxes also contributes to flight of talent and capital from the economy.

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12401 Posts
Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:55:39 AM
A minimum wage presumes that unemployment is inelastic and that in general employers will be able to sustain themselves even with the cost of labour set externally.

If employment is elastic, the minimum wage effectively makes it illegal or illogical to employ anyone worth commercially less than the minimum wage. If an employee hasn't managed to attain the education, experience and health required of the minimum wage, then they had better avail themselves of whatever welfare the government of the day decides to dole out, or emigrate to a place that permits you a better lifestyle at your local value point than your home territory's welfare permits.

If the general population of employers are unable to pass on their costs to consumers (such as in a recession) then unemployment will rise, as employers go bust or transfer their activities away from the regulated economy.


JadesDitoyr
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 514 Posts
Wednesday, December 18, 2013 10:57:33 PM
@OldOllie
I disagree, patchouly and I have had a decent conversation in which we both agreed that "something" must be done about the state of the economy and that increased minimum wages will actually hurt more people than help.

The building of bridges and the education of others is a large part of why I love political discourse.

OldOllie
Male, 60-69, Midwest US
 14515 Posts
Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:42:37 PM
Nothing to see here. Just a bunch of socialist claptrap. Move along...move along...

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12401 Posts
Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:15:02 PM
I don't believe in a minimum wage, although I have always paid more than minimum wage.

JadesDitoyr
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 514 Posts
Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:54:47 PM
@jops
If we force full time, we guarantee that employers will fire a lot of part time employees. "Sorry, I have eight of you working 20 hours a week, I'm required to keep staff on for 40, so four of you have to go, the other four get 40 hrs."

Look, I'm all in favor of closing tax loopholes, but I do think more important is a fair (non-tiered) tax system. Sales Tax is fantastic, just saying.

@Squrlz
This isn't about fast food workers, though. This is the fate of our economy that we're talking about. I for one am thrilled to see a rigorous and real debate.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:20:27 PM
I noticed how everyone in favor of the minimum wage laws believes that raising the minimum wage will force wealthy people to pay the difference.

I think that's adorable.

jops360
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 586 Posts
Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:14:11 PM
megrendal -
wage needs to reflect the times. right now min wage pays only $16000/yr before taxes thats if you are lucky enough to get a full 40 hrs.

in 2012, there were 1.6 million people making min wage and another 2 million making less. even working these jobs these people are elegable for welfare. is that acceptable for you? why cant we make a wage that gets these people off of the government's back?

i did notice that you only picked small parts of my argument to comment on and left out answers to anything else i mentioned.the real problem with min wage is inflation. when you have to make money the existing money losses value. then how about we stop the tax avoidance the rich use everyday and make them pay their dues? this would put the much needed money back into the system and even lower inflation.
although the min wage argument needs attention, i am more in favor of forcing a full time status for workers. companies are relying on not giving benifits a

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