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How Ddoes Tthe Affordable Care Act Aaffect Yyou?

Hits: 2778 | Rating: (1.8) | Category: Misc. | Added by: auburnjunky
Page: 1 2 3 4 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:17:25 PM
@dang007

"Congratulations you have just created the perfect system to scam."

It was one idea, pulled out of my arse. An arse that belongs to a person who isn't a politician, healthcare expert, or anything even remotely qualified to dream up viable policies.

I would trust that the people who ARE the above things would be able to come up with something more robust.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:14:34 PM
@dang007

As was pointed out, more people won't be using the resource: they're already using it. HumanAction stated that in the US, hospitals can't refuse you treatment for emergencies.

All that changes is how those people pay for it. Before, they weren't paying for it (going bankrupt), so the hospitals foot the bill. Or the government foots the bill via welfare.

What WILL increase in demand, I grant you, are non-emergency treatments, as people will obtain them rather than go without as they were before.

BUT the increased cost of that is surely offset by the increased health, productivity, and tax-payments of the people who get the treatment. Previously, they were sicker, less productive, unable to work some or all of the time, etc etc.

Bottom line: healthier population = more productive population = wealthier population = happier population = BETTER.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:08:35 PM
@OldOllie

"Reality's a bitch, isn't it?"

I'm not a liberal: you can't measure me by your culture's political catagories, as I'm not part of your culture.

What your culture considers "liberal" is entirely different to mine. Likewise for "conservative".

For example: the Conservative party over here DEFENDS the NHS (universal healthcare). The standard little-c conservative over there would be an ultra hardcore right-winger here.

But...if you feel more capable of dismissing anything I have to say by slapping a label on me and writing me off as an uninformed "sheep", feel free. You're in your 60s. I won't have to deal with you in a decade or two. You're pretty irrelevant to a lot of people's future.

pazerlenis
Male, 40-49, Western US
 1033 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 4:23:34 PM
@OldOllie, "Reality's a bitch, isn't it?"

Something tells me Reality is what you named your female dog...

dang007
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 594 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 12:38:06 PM
>>>but the tax burden will go down by exactly the same amount. <<<

How can you say that with a straight face.

More people using the finite resource. (I do not see a huge influx of doctors, or a long list of doctors with lots of time to fill.) The price goes UP. People that used to wait until they could not stand it any longer, i.e often just suffered through a bad cold or allergy, will now go to the doctor. More demand for the service HIGHER PRICES. So no the reduced tax burden (by the way were exactly is my tax reduction.) will not of set my increased cost.

dang007
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 594 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 12:32:48 PM
>>>>It wouldn't need to be quite that intense. Put together whatever kind of metrics are needed to measure patient health (get cleverer people than me to do it), have doctors record what's necessary, get computers to crunch the numbers, and spit out the doctor's bonus pay based on the numbers. <<<<

Congratulations you have just created the perfect system to scam. Doctors no longer need to worry about patient care. Just how they report things. Why worry about a dissatisfied customer just be sure they don't count in the rankings.

I agree that profit should be aligned with outcome. The free market system in which providers interact directly with consumers and NOT through a third party (insurance or government)accomplishes this better than any other system. Thus by definition a state run health care system is NOT the best choice.

OldOllie
Male, 60-69, Midwest US
 14794 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 12:02:52 PM
@Musuko42 Reality's a bitch, isn't it?

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:21:16 AM
@OldOllie

We've just had pages and pages of some pretty good discussion...

...and that's what you chime in with.

Wow. How massively you have added to this discussion. How valuable your contribution is.

Go back to sleep, deary.

OldOllie
Male, 60-69, Midwest US
 14794 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:19:28 AM
There's nothing new here. Liberals are immune to facts.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:17:46 AM
@musuko

See, the States were originally like European countries and the federal government was like the EU.

The federal government was only there to do the big things like universal currency, national defense, settling interstate disputes...

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:13:34 AM
@musuko

Are US states allowed to put together things like that?

For sure. Massachusetts does it.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:00:52 AM
@HumanAction

"Well, most of the police aren't federal; they're either local or state."

I see! Fair enough then.

So it could boil down to being a state-supplied thing, perhaps?

Hey, yeah, perhaps that is a good solution. Some states would vote to provide universal healthcare, some wouldn't.

Are US states allowed to put together things like that?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:00:14 AM
@musuko

In a purely simple sense, the average insurance will go up, but the tax burden will go down by exactly the same amount.

Isn't this just coming around full circle to our discussion of change in demand?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:57:00 AM
@Musuko

What about police? Is that covered under militia?

Well, most of the police aren't federal; they're either local or state.

They get away with some due to a VERY liberal interpretation of the General Welfare Clause. The funny thing about that is that Hamilton (I think it was Hamilton) decided that the interpretation was a liberal one after the Constitution was signed into law. Before the signing, Jefferson stated plainly that it did not give the government such power.

Imagine a salesman telling you that the contract means something specific that you agree to, so you sign it. Then, right after signing it, a different salesman says "Oh, you though it meant that? No. It actually means this!"

Kind of the same thing.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:52:10 AM
@HumanAction

You're missing out a big chunk of the equation, however. In a purely simple sense, the average insurance will go up, but the tax burden will go down by exactly the same amount.

Because those 40 million were getting treatment anyway. All you're doing is shifting how their treatment is paid, from tax-funded medicare/aid/whatever, to insurance funded.

Net result, no change (not taking into account the various complexities, of course).

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:49:29 AM
@HumanAction

So it does! Bad example then. ^_^

What about police? Is that covered under militia?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:49:19 AM
@HolyGod

However note I used the words "let's say".

Fair enough. I was trying to be funny.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:48:39 AM
@holygod

Please explain that.

Sure.

Right now we have something like 350m people. Something to the effect of 40m are uninsured (number doesn't really matter here as long as it's greater than 0). Let's, for simplicity's sake, just say that the average cost of health insurance is (x).

Right now, here is what we have:

Average Cost Per Person = (310x + 40*0)/350... That's 31/35x.

Now, let's give insurance, at the same rate (x) to the rest:

Average Cost Per Person = 350x/350... That's 1x.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:43:58 AM
@musuko

Does the constutition say anything about taxes paying for roads and other public services?

Yes. Article 1 Section 8 lists everything that the Congress may collect taxes for. "Roads" is actually one of those things.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:34:00 AM
@HumanAction

"They would need to hire quite a few people to monitor doctors on a patient-by-patient level."

It wouldn't need to be quite that intense. Put together whatever kind of metrics are needed to measure patient health (get cleverer people than me to do it), have doctors record what's necessary, get computers to crunch the numbers, and spit out the doctor's bonus pay based on the numbers.

Include a team of auditers who'll periodically check the doctors aren't fiddling their numbers, and I would say you're about done.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:32:41 AM
HumanAction

"As you would say, "citation needed" XD"

Oh, for sure. However note I used the words "let's say". I'm talking in hypotheticals while crakr talks in absolutes with words like "are" and "will". I just was showing how a huge number like a billion wouldn't make everyone's rates skyrocket the way this video makes it seem. I have NO idea what the number would be.

"Historical precedent suggests that the insurance companies will find a way to work around this."

I guess we'll see. However, an attempt at oversight is better than nothing in my opinion.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5097 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:32:16 AM
HumanAction

"This means that the average cost of insurance goes up. Even if our rates all stay the same (a BIG "if", IMO), the average rate still increases because more people are in the system. In the past, they paid nothing."

? Please explain that. If our rates stay the same and then you add more people, paying the same rate, the average rate DOES NOT increase.

In ANY economic system, there are only a few ways to mitigate a sudden increase in demand"

Sure. I don't see demand increasing THAT much. Hopefully now the demand will start shifting from uninsured people at urgent cares and ERs to insured people at their doctor's office.


Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:30:51 AM
@HumanAction

"I think you'd be surprised to know that there are already some private hospitals and schools that do this."

Perfect. We know it works then. :)

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:28:29 AM
@HumanAction

Why does the constitution need to be ammended? Does the constutition say anything about taxes paying for roads and other public services?

Or does it say anything about why healthcare can't be considered a public service?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:16:54 AM
@musuko

Surely doctors and healthcare providers are extensively monitored.

They are overseen by a private board and are subject to the legal system. They would need to hire quite a few people to monitor doctors on a patient-by-patient level.

We can't really be held to ransom by these people, can we?

Isn't it the other way around? As in, isn't the government then holding the individual's job ransom in exchange for compliance?

Interesting to see the differences in perspective.

Nobody's forced to do it, it's a fair trade, everyone wins.

If they amended the Constitution for it, then that works for me. I think you'd be surprised to know that there are already some private hospitals and schools that do this.

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