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Current Budget Crisis Was Planned Months Ago?[Pic+

Hits: 6752 | Rating: (2.6) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: Stinkytoes
Page: 1 2 3 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24188 Posts
Thursday, October 10, 2013 7:33:59 PM
VV Thanks @broizfam! We've been TRYING to talk some sense into certain people about how RUDE that is, perhaps he, (er they?) will listen to a 'neutral voice'?

broizfam
Male, 50-59, Eastern US
 2983 Posts
Thursday, October 10, 2013 2:25:13 PM
"Does NOBODY ELSE find it hilarious that the 2 people most vocally opposed to healthcare reform and the government getting involved are two guys that live off of government provided healthcare?"

Understand that I'm just about completely the opposite, politically speaking at least, of the "two guys" referred to, here. The comment, however, is really kind of unfair. The fact that someone is in a position where he requires government assistance doesn't mean he can't view a government assistance law critically and find it lacking or even completely inappropriate.
Personally, I'm not fond of the idea of government involvement in healthcare since it seems to be REALLY BAD at that kind of thing. Insurance companies really suck at it badly enough already, without adding government input. Again, I don't agree with their political view of the law but I certainly feel they have the right to voice their opinions regardless of their need for similar support.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24188 Posts
Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:15:50 PM
@Musuko42: I grow weary of constantly looking up EASY TO FIND things for my nay-sayers.

10X the RATE is ghod-awful! There's no other way of looking at it. It might be 20X, I forget, but it's absolutely outrageous. "Small numbers" that is "cold comfort" to those who die in British Hospitals...

I support ACTUAL Universal Healthcare. It doesn't exist anywhere, but some nations come close!

ObamaCare is the OPPOSITE! It is already making things MUCH worse, and it hasn't even started yet!!!

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2804 Posts
Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:21:28 AM
@5Cats.

PS: You STILL didn't actually answer my question: yes or no, do you support the idea of universal healthcare?

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2804 Posts
Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:20:47 AM
@5Cats

"But your system is falling to pieces! "Preventable Deaths" in hospitals 10X the rate of the USA? ZOMG!"

Can you supply a source for that, please, because that's a very bold statement.

Also, do you have the raw numbers? Ten times a tiny number is still a tiny number. Ten times a large number is greater cause for concern. Saying something is ten times worse than something else is meaningless without knowing the numbers.

For example, if your chance of a preventable death is 1 in 10 million in the US, and 1 in 1 million here, it's not really a threat to lose too much sleep over.

""Universal Healthcare" is BLOODY expensive! It's one OR the other: "open to all" OR "affordable"."

How can you say our universal healthcare system is expensive when we pay a lot less per head than America does in their system? Our system is proven cheaper than their approach.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24188 Posts
Wednesday, October 09, 2013 1:48:22 PM
It's "similar" yes. Not quite as "all encompassing" I think. There are a lot more excluded things in Canada, I think.

But your system is falling to pieces! "Preventable Deaths" in hospitals 10X the rate of the USA? ZOMG!

And the "Euro-Zone" doesn't help either eh? When people from all over Europe come to Britain for expensive treatments? Who foots the bills for that?
(I saw it on PBS...)

"Universal Healthcare" is BLOODY expensive! It's one OR the other: "open to all" OR "affordable".

I like Japan's system! But it depends on low pay for most doctors...

Anyhow? The #1 Way To Fix US Healthcare?

Tort Reform. Period.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2804 Posts
Wednesday, October 09, 2013 9:35:55 AM
@5Cats

You didn't answer my question, so I'll expand it a little: do you support the concept of universal free at the point of use healthcare, along the lines of the British system?

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2804 Posts
Wednesday, October 09, 2013 9:34:46 AM
@5Cats

"Again I repeat myself: Universal Free Healthcare is neither 'universal' nor 'free' in Canada. Some nations have both, that's true! But they still PAY for it through taxes..."

Can some other Canadians confirm that for me? I'd always been under the impression that the healthcare there is similar in structure to ours (British NHS).

Btw, I'm well-aware it's not free. That's why it's typically referred to as "free at the point of use". You still pay for it, but through your taxes when you're able to pay for it, rather than when you actually need it (and are least likely to be able to pay for it).

Please stop calling it "free" healthcare, because that's not what it is.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24188 Posts
Wednesday, October 09, 2013 9:22:18 AM
When did I call you names in the last exchange?

You cussed at me... highly similar.
So one minute you say 55, the next it's 45? And are you counting the millions who've switched from one Gov't program to another? Nope!

...but unhappy to allow others to do so.

@Musuko42: Noooo, I'm unhappy that the USA is trying to enforce a suicidally stupid program which will HARM millions of people!
Why?
Because chances are high that Canada will follow suit, ruining our already "poor" healthcare system!
Yes: we get covered for catastrophic care, that's good!
But: We still need to buy insurance! We don't get covered for essential medical care!

ObamaCare takes a bad system and makes it worse. BY FORCE!

Again I repeat myself: Universal Free Healthcare is neither 'universal' nor 'free' in Canada. Some nations have both, that's true! But they still PAY for it through taxes...

McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 13145 Posts
Wednesday, October 09, 2013 5:56:06 AM

Everyone is required to buy health insurance NOT A SPECIFIC BRAND. All the insurance companies now get to fight for customers and there is transparency about prices. That is GOOD for competition and the consumer.



Oligopoly: An oligopoly is a market form in which a market or industry is dominated by a small number of sellers (oligopolists). Oligopolies can result from various forms of collusion which reduce competition and lead to higher costs for consumers.

And insurance companies have been so honest and caring for their customers in the past haven't they.......

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2804 Posts
Wednesday, October 09, 2013 1:11:59 AM
@5Cats

What I'm saying is that you seem to be fine with yourself paying into the system and then using it, but unhappy to allow others to do so. Please correct me if that's not the case, but that's the impression I've built from witnessing your arguments.

You also seem to be fundamentally against the notion of universal healthcare (again, an impression built), whilst happy to be part of it. That's like being pro-life and having an abortion yourself.

Tell me why you use your universal healthcare when you are not being forced to do so. Why do you not refuse its benefits as a protest?

Sticking your money where your mouth is, so to speak.

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 9:11:50 PM
"Maternity care is required, even if you don't expect to be pregnant for the rest of your life."

Well, then, buy your own damn individual policy not via the exchanges like I did. People against this are so totally uniformed it's not funny. I've had my own health insurance policy for over 10 years and I can keep it if I want to. When the traffic to the site dies down, I'll check out the exchanges, compare them to what I have now and decide what to do. Is it REALLY SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND???????????????????????????

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4824 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 6:45:32 PM
Cajun247

Nobody is perfectly happy with a compromise. That is what this is. However it is SOMETHING. The first SOMETHING we have ever had.

I don't need obamacare.

You don't need obamacare.

However somewhere there is a 26 yr old with early onset parkinsons that is thanking jehovah, xenu, and anyone else who will listen that this law has come.

This will help a lot of people more than it will hurt some people. Is it the best solution for everyone? No. There is no BEST SOLUTION FOR EVERYONE. If that existed it would have happened by now.

I like that there will be an exchange where insurance rates are upfront and available for comparison.

I like the death of "pre-existing conditions".

I like the government putting some restrictions on how bad insurance companies can f.uck people.

I like a 20% cap on insurance company operating share.

I like that SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10210 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 5:40:16 PM
Above all else competition requires that consumers be able to say 'no', without legal consequences, even to their own detriment. By definition the individual and employer mandates undermine this.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10210 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 5:35:10 PM
Everyone is required to buy health insurance NOT A SPECIFIC BRAND. All the insurance companies now get to fight for customers and there is transparency about prices. That is GOOD for competition and the consumer.


Sounds good, except that options for your plan are heavily constrained with "essential benefits", without letting the consumer decide what's "essential" to themself. Maternity care is required, even if you don't expect to be pregnant for the rest of your life. Prescription drugs are covered, even you don't reasonably foresee you'll need them in the future (plus it's an expense you're actually supposed to pay out of pocket like a subscription).

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4824 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:46:12 PM
5Cats

"Now you're saying 45? And calling me names for thinking it is 55? When YOU SAID it was 55...
...typical!"

You are comparing apples to oranges. The CBO estimate includes undocumented aliens. The census bureau number counted only citizens. I don't have the CBO number from 2008, but as the rate of uninsured is unchanged according to the census bureau it is pretty easy to extrapolate the change is similar to that of the census bureau findings.

I forgive your error if you misinterpreted the data and based it on those numbers, but by any account, your statement that "Obama's policies have ADDED over 10 million uninsured since he took office" is GROSSLY inaccurate agreed?

When did I call you names in the last exchange?

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4824 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:38:01 PM
NerdRage

"If there is no competition , there is no competency or even a will to excel, being that everyone is obligated to buy you, you will be more corrupt than ever possible before."

Everyone is required to buy health insurance NOT A SPECIFIC BRAND. All the insurance companies now get to fight for customers and there is transparency about prices. That is GOOD for competition and the consumer.

Everyone is required to buy car insurance as well, does that mean there isn't competition among car insurance companies? I think it is one of the most competitive markets out there.

What the good f.uck are you talking about?

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4824 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:32:08 PM
Crakr

"So yeah, it's not dropping because of Obamacare"

HOW THE F.UCK COULD IT?

Obamacare hasn't started yet.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4824 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:31:40 PM
Crakr

"Which would be an even bigger disaster."

WHY?

It is what you are on. It is what 5Cats is on. It is what our grandparents are on. What is wrong with medicare for all? Why is that such a dirty idea to you guys?

Nerd_Rage
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 423 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:10:45 PM
Let this serve as a response to all of those who support the Affordable Care Act. It is really quite simple-- Observe:

Capitalism = competition to provide services or materials for capital gain, It is a free market system, Meaning that those who are the best, or provide the best will be the most successful; obviously others will think of new ways to beat the best, then they will become the best, this ensures both competition and competency in service.

The affordable health care act would mandate the purchasing of health care, Thereby forcing demand onto a free market system.

Therefore, it's not only a fascist way to accomplish what charity already can, but is also going to fail. If there is no competition , there is no competency or even a will to excel, being that everyone is obligated to buy you, you will be more corrupt than ever possible before. Because you have no obligation to change.
My argument is not of fact, but ideals. Let's not digress on sim

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24188 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:05:20 PM
@HolyGod: DOWN FROM 55 DUMBASS Your OWN LINK, which you made, says 55 million.
Now you're saying 45? And calling me names for thinking it is 55? When YOU SAID it was 55...
...typical!

Apology expected.

@Musuko42: Are you suggesting that:
#1 Those who disagree with the government are NOT allowed to utilize ANYTHING from it?
#2 That receiving something from the gov't CANCELS YOUR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION?

I paid into "the system" and now I'm getting help from it. Where's the hypocrisy? I'm saying the ObamaCare is NOT going to help, it is going to HARM.

The 29 hour work week is reality in the USA now, thanks to Obama! Good luck y'all!


Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10210 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 3:49:31 PM

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16738 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 3:40:53 PM
HG: "Democrats don't want THIS. They want single payer."

Which would be an even bigger disaster.

A good "First step" would be tort reform, followed by allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines.

Right now all Obamacare is doing is cutting employees down to 29hrs. and making employers cut jobs down below 50.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16738 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 3:34:37 PM
HG: From your own link to 5Cats, "The rate of uninsured Americans dropped slightly for the second consecutive year in 2012, from 15.7 percent to 15.4 percent, largely a result of more people enrolling in Medicare and Medicaid."

So yeah, it's not dropping because of Obamacare, it's dropping because people are joining the Medicare and Medicaid rolls via claiming disability. I wouldn't call that good news either.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4824 Posts
Tuesday, October 08, 2013 3:33:58 PM
CrakrJak

"That's still less than half the uninsured, that's not what I would call successful."

IT ISN'T SUCCESSFULL.

Find me ONE person that thinks obamacare is a home run. IT ISN'T. It is a base hit.

It is SOMETHING. A first step. Better than nothing. Whatever you want to call it.

Frankly I don't care about CBO estimates 10 years from now because I can't fathom something coming along to replace this, something better, before then.

All the stuff you guys are complaining about now, like the mandate, are things democrats put in to compromise with republicans. Democrats don't want THIS. They want single payer.

FIRST STEP. SOMETHING.

You legalize civil unions so you can legalize gay marriage.

You legalize medical marijuana so you can legalize marijuana.

It takes time to make major changes.

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