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Lake At The North Pole? Not Really. 300 Miles Away

Hits: 6220 | Rating: (2.1) | Category: Science | Added by: 5Cats
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Xprez
Male, 30-39, Western US
 676 Posts
Saturday, August 10, 2013 7:45:43 PM
That's what the media does best, make something out of nothing new. Al Gore says it's bad, so it must be.... People will believe anything if the right amount of celebrities tell them it's true. Same backing got our current president voted in.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Tuesday, August 06, 2013 1:17:07 PM
Congratulations gentlemen, we have done the internet a great service, we have slayed a troll.



5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24198 Posts
Tuesday, August 06, 2013 1:44:30 AM
Thanks guys! Now I are a happy cat too!



This is "Happy Cat" the original "I can haz cheeseburger" kitty...

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 10:09:54 PM
@5Cats: It's cool dude, you definitely were a big part of the debate and you made a post with 5220 hits so far and 129 comments. Thats at least hundreds if not thousands of people who were definitely not bored. Kudos, on the great post.



Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10210 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 9:10:21 PM
@5Cats

I think you made some important points, but overall richanddead did most of the talking.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24198 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 8:48:45 PM
@Cajun247: And what am I? Chopped liver?

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 8:32:08 PM
@Cajun247: Lol, admittedly yeah, I agree.


Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10210 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 8:20:51 PM
Someone should've warned mankind about the science flamewar that would rage between vortex and r&d


richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 8:20:12 PM
5Cats: "Oh LOOK! @mesovortex accused ME of trolling for posting the facts!"

That seems to be the special sauce of his arguments.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24198 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 8:10:53 PM
Lolz! Nice of you to find a smaller picture @richanddead

Oh LOOK! @mesovortex accused ME of trolling for posting the facts!





richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 8:09:18 PM
@5Cats: Lol, I know and agree he's trolling at this point. But debating helps give one's arguments irrefutability in the long run, even if you just debate with trolls.

Remember trolls are living creatures and a part of the environment, they need food too, sometimes.

(sry rewrote it)



5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24198 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 8:04:56 PM
@richanddead: LOLZ! Nice!

Let them eat... billygoats!



@mesovortex's self image:



Bitter Reality:



True, but sad, eh?

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24198 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 7:58:07 PM
Hint: MOST Greenland Glacier ice is THOUSANDS of years old!
NOT SO for any "sea ice" anywhere.

Get it? Comparing the "melt rates" of glaciers and sea ice is STUPID. There's no other word for it.

And if you claim: BOTH Northern Sea Ice AND the polar ice is shrinking? Ok.

I point out that the South Pole's Ice is growing.

GLOBAL warming? Or cyclical patterns?

If the North warms while the South cools, the OVERALL temperature stays... THE SAME!

JUST LIKE IT HAS for the past 15 years...

JUST LIKE IT HAS slowly been warming since the "Little Ice Age" some 500 years ago! BEFORE the CO2 started to rise a mere 100 years ago!!! BEFORE humans had anything to DO WITH IT.

FACTS!

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24198 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 7:48:38 PM



@richanddead: Unless that's how you "get your jollies" eh?

Whatever floats your boat!

You've utterly destroyed ALL his so-called arguments, but he won't shut up! He won't stop changing the subject! He won't ANSWER a single question honestly!

I give up on him. He joins the ranks of UBER-TROLLS at IAB...

They know who they are.

You haven't once addressed the many points you were wrong about, including confusing VOLUME for AREA.

Oh really Mr.Troll? Do the Greenland GLACIERS (NOT sea ice) fluctuate yearly? Do they go in cycles of thickness & size? = NO.
ARE the southern hemisphere ice floes GROWING at the same time the northern ones are shrinking? = YES

Not only have I answered YOUR retorts, you've utterly IGNORED my FACTS.

Troll-boy!

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 7:10:16 PM
(cont)

"which has only ONE source"

Look at the lower left corner of the graph next to 0 and 600. It says

"Temp after C.R. Scotese
CO2 after R.A Berner, 2001"

1. C.R. Scotese

2. R.A Berner, 2001

2 sources copied and overlaid on a geological period reference map, to make one graph.

1+1=2

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 7:01:08 PM
(cont)
"The page where the orange graph came from, which has only ONE source, only has 23 pages, and does NOT have what you claim.
Game.
Set.
Match."

Look at again, there is no denying your lying eyes. That is the whole study, the other parts are his experiments, pictures of sediments, and other general information that he built his study with.

Regardless the data points match at every level. And if you think they don't you should link where they don't, because I would be just as interested to see it. I'm not your Mommy, search for it yourself or buy your own subscription, I've already linked it several times now.

Game.
Set.
Match.






richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 6:44:27 PM
"Man is causing entire species to be wiped out. We're changing the coastline. We are changing climate."

The same could be said about the rats, nutria, and birds. Entire species are wiped out anyway, its part of evolution and again not unnatural. We are an apex species and the top one to ever exist. But we cause extinction by other means other than global warming.
All, 100%, everyone of them, of todays species have come through multiple warming episodes that have surpassed todays temperatures for 100's of years on end. Even the cold period between the Minoan and Roman warming periods was warmer than todays temperatures and all the species lived through it just fine. We kill ecosystems through localized pollution of rivers and habitats, hunting, invasive species, and by sprawling, not by warming the climate.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 6:42:53 PM
(cont)
"As an extreme example, if the earth's atmosphere turned into 97% CO2 like it is on Venus, then yes it would get substantially warmer. If the sun was dying out at the same time, then it would get colder, but CO2 would still have a net warming effect on whatever solar radiation was left that hit Earth."

Here we go again, NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT CO2 IS NOT A GREEN HOUSE GAS!!! I AM SAYING IT ISN'T IN ENOUGH CONCENTRATIONS TO DRAMATICALLY CHANGE EARTH'S CLIMATE, HOW MANY WAYS MUST I SAY IT!?!?!

Also CO2 can never reach those levels on Earth BECAUSE titanic amounts of CO2 are absorbed by organism on earth unlike Venus.

And just to point out if the sun was dying, it would fuse Hydrogen into Helium, expand, and incinerate the earth, not cool it off.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 6:42:32 PM
(cont)
"Even if his source did have this (which you've yet to provide a single link referring said source) it is only ONE, which again doesn't negate the fact that CO2 does cause a rise in temps if all other things are equal (this is basic physics), and doesn't negate the fact that man can and does change climate."

Firstly I've given you several links to it, I can lead a horse to water, but I can not make him drink. Read it. For the umpteenth time no one says greenhouse gasses aren't real, I am saying that things are not equal, the earth is not static, there are multiple other forces at work, the warming is at natural levels, not unprecedented, and not lethal to the environment or civilization, and that you can not change the weather to whatever you want it to be.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 6:41:46 PM
(cont)
"You're making this up. His only source only has 23 pages. Provide the source with a link or shut up."

Dude I gave a link to it, you didn't want to get the subscription, so I sent you the germaine part where the data for the graph was collected and graphed, then you complain it wasn't the whole thing. I'm not going to buy you a subscription, do it yourself.

LOOK AT IT! Your telling me you don't see, any correlation between the two CO2 models?! It's the same graph, with a temperature model and a era reference added into it. How do you not see it?





richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 6:41:10 PM
(cont)

"The argument is simple:
* Change the content of the atmosphere
* This changes climate "

No, the argument is if the ratio of different gases in earth's atmosphere is changed at unprecedented levels by human intervention to cause an unnatural amount of warming that would pose a risk to people and ecosystems.

"Man is changing the content of the atmosphere, therefore he is changing climate."

By that logic, all organisms change the content of the atmosphere at some level, therefore they all are changing climate and have done so for 4 billion years. Yet that doesn't mean that the change in the atmosphere is unnatural or that current warming is unprecedented.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 6:40:10 PM
(cont)
"I also see you tried to tart out the 'hide the decline' saw."

Actually, I never mentioned it, you did. I never said anything about the E-mails or climategate. I was replying to your comment about tree ring data and more specifically the information I used derives from the inaccuracies Esper's 2002 model found with the Briffa's, and Mann's 1995, and Jones's 1998 climate reconstructions methods. It has nothing to do with climategate. Thats why it says (Esper) and (Briffa) next to the types of trees. It had nothing to do with climategate, all of this predated it, please don't assume to put words in my mouth.




"Did you bother to research ANYTHING you posted?"

Did you? You don't even read where the information is coming from.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 6:39:32 PM
(cont)
"It's just like dumping bleach into a bathtub. It just makes a different mix of fluid"

Firstly, its not like the earth was devoid of CO2 before us. To use your example it's like dumping bleach into bleach water thats already had some of the bleach in it degenerate, it's not a different mix of fluids, nor is it unnatural for the water to be at that state. The Co2 in the atmosphere isn't at unprecedented or unnatural levels, nature can exceed these levels quite handily.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 6:38:03 PM
(cont)
"CO2 causes a net warming effect due to the greenhouse effect WHICH YOU ADMIT EXISTS."

Lol thanks for informing me what I believe, unfortunately you missed the point of why I said it. CO2 does create warming but it is NOT INCREASING AT UNNATURAL LEVELS. And everything else is not the same, the earth is not static, I already mentioned the current unusual solar cycle, the increase in methane, and the end of the little ice age. All of which INCREASE TEMPERATURES NATURALLY. Do understand this concept, natural warming. Just because people exist does not mean that the warming is unprecedented, your body heat warms the earth, your fart warms the earth, when you exhale you warm the earth. Yes we have industry too ,but that doesn't mean that CO2 is at unnatural levels, in fact all data shows it has been much higher in the past.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1712 Posts
Monday, August 05, 2013 6:37:26 PM
(cont)
"The source isn't correctly used. Even if it was..."

The graph is a comparison of temperature and CO2. It cites its sources, used the data provided, and overlays two graphs to show a the relationship between the two, with no distinctions from the original sources. I honestly have no idea how you think "The source isn't correctly used," please explain.

"it IN NO WAY shows that man cannot and does not change climate, and IN NO WAY shows CO2 does not change climate."

It isn't meant to show that man does not effect CO2, mainly because man hadn't even evolved during the vast majority of these times. It is meant to show the high levels CO2 and temperatures that aided in the formation of coal deposits. But it also shows that there is not a direct correlation between temperature and CO2. Especially, with points showing rising CO2 levels and falling temperatures, thats why it is important.

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