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Brutal Home Invasion Caught On Nanny Cam [Graphic]

Hits: 7080 | Rating: (3.3) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 13 4 5 6 7 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:38:02 AM
@HolyGod

If someone takes me out to eat I always pick something more moderately priced than if I would have paid myself.

OK - that was a really bad analogy. It would be more like someone saying, from now on, all your meals will cost you $X regardless of what you get. If your meal actually costs more than $X, the extra will be taken out of the "pot".

Sure, some of the more noble people in society will be good about it. However, people who can't afford a thick ribeye, even the noblest of them, will end up having ribeye at some point.

Obviously the quantity of ribeye demanded will increase. At this point, either price will increase, or supply will expand to keep prices relatively stable.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:32:23 AM
@HolyGod

You don't have kids right?

Correct. I think we envisioned something entirely different when I said "kids". I get the sense you're considering some tiny 5-year old where I would call them a child. Kids, to me, are preteens.

Either way, that wasn't really the focus of the argument. When I posted the analogy, do you think I was trying to convey that Junior should be made to suffer to save some money, or that consumers, when given options, will try to maximize their utility?

As an adult I may make that decision for myself, weighing the discomfort to the extra money.

This is what I was getting at.

The fact of the matter is that it's paradoxical to complain about rising healthcare costs and, at the same time, support a 3rd party payer system. Demand will increase, and price will follow. The supply of medicine cannot expand enough to keep prices down.


HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5028 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:15:15 AM
Cajun247

"Just what makes the clinic take longer?"

The fact that HumanAction postulated: "You can go to the emergency room and be treated immediately, or, you can wait for a spot at a clinic "

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5028 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:13:47 AM
HumanAction

"""Hey you, whatever you want, dinner is on me tonight" and hand you a blank check, are you going to be more likely to eat expensively?"

No. Absolutely not. If someone takes me out to eat I always pick something more moderately priced than if I would have paid myself. Now if it is on the restaurant like an ANY meal free coupon or something, then I agree with your scenario.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5028 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:12:22 AM
HumanAction

"You are so dramatic sometimes. A broken finger, and the relatively MINOR pain involved is not the end of the world."

You don't have kids right? I would never let one of my kids suffer for any longer than was absolutely necessary, more money or not.

"If I break my finger..."

TOTALLY different scenario. As an adult I may make that decision for myself, weighing the discomfort to the extra money.

"Do you agree that a 3rd party payer system encourages overuse of any system?"

I guess maybe your scenario was bad then, as taking a child with a broken finger is not an "overuse" of an er in my opinion. But yes I would agree. Someone with health insurance will go to a doctor more than someone who has to pay out of pocket. of course.






HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 10:54:32 AM
@HolyGod

So a kid in pain has to suffer for longer so his parents can keep a little extra money? Awesome scenario.

You are so dramatic sometimes. A broken finger, and the relatively MINOR pain involved is not the end of the world. If I break my finger, I'll see a specialist later that day or the day after. It will cost me a ton less than it would have cost if I went to the emergency room.

Let's not do the emotion plea thing right now and just consider the real argument at hand.

Do you agree that a 3rd party payer system encourages overuse of any system? This is the argument at hand.

If I say, "Hey you, whatever you want, dinner is on me tonight" and hand you a blank check, are you going to be more likely to eat expensively?

Don't be so dramatic and emotional.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10287 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 10:48:31 AM
So a kid in pain has to suffer for longer so his parents can keep a little extra money?


Just what makes the clinic take longer? Conversely no city has unlimited ER's to deal with every ailment that occurs. A broken finger won't kill anyone like say a foreign object rammed through your abdomen will.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5028 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 10:25:49 AM
HumanAction

"Let's say Junior breaks his finger... Now, if I hand you enough money to go to the emergency room and say that you can keep whatever you don't spend, I think you might consider the clinic road."

Holy s.hit. Did you really just say that? You think that is a good thing?

So a kid in pain has to suffer for longer so his parents can keep a little extra money? Awesome scenario.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 6:12:15 AM
@HolyGod

Being financially responsible takes learning and practice.

Absolutely! Unfortunately, you cannot gain any such experience when your financial decisions are being made by a third party - such as the government.

Here's an example:

Let's say Junior breaks his finger. You can go to the emergency room and be treated immediately, or, you can wait for a spot at a clinic which will cost much less.

If the healthcare is paid for by a third party, the incentive is to go to the emergency room - even if you don't really need to. You will personally pay the same amount of money in either case, so you might as well get the quicker service. This is a rational decision by the consumer.

Now, if I hand you enough money to go to the emergency room and say that you can keep whatever you don't spend, I think you might consider the clinic road.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 6:06:50 AM
@lauriloo

Whoa killer! It's not so much that you think "people are evil," it's that you think the average person is below your own nobility. You've set an arbitrary level of nobility, which you believe - at least consciously - that you meet, yet openly say that the average citizen will not meet. If anything, that's nothing more than arrogance.

Also, the consequence of welfare is more poverty - not the other way around. You people are so focused on "helping the poor" in the here and now. At what cost though? Welfare (and other such policies) have demonstrably created poverty, widened the income gap, and driven inflation.

Where you are focused on helping some random poor people today, I'm trying to move the entire line. Give money to a poor person and they will have a blanket tonight. Push the economy, and their children will buy their own blankets. Forgive me, but mine seems moral.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 5:58:22 AM
@lauriloo

The success of HumanAction's theories depend heavily on whether people will "do the right thing" and support each other when given free will about what they will do with their money.

Not this one. You're arguing based on your assumption that I am arguing (in this particular argument) for something I am not. The negative income tax idea does not at all require people to "do the right thing."

As for economics, I'd venture a guess I know more about economics that you. The problem I see is that you equate economic knowledge with whether or not your opponent agrees with you. In that case, Krugman must be a genius!

Also, I can't possibly be a 35 year old economics PHD as I'm 24.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5028 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 9:21:32 PM
CrakrJak

"As I've said before, there are many different kinds of intelligence, it's not all about book learning. There are musical geniuses, artistic geniuses, mechanical geniuses, aesthetic geniuses, science geniuses, philosophic geniuses, etc.."

Not only is intelligence not all about book learning, it has NOTHING to do with book learning. "Learning" from a book is retention of information, knowledge. Intelligence has nothing to do with retention of information, intelligence is the ability to process information.

You can memorize encyclopedias and be extremely knowledgeable but be too dumb to figure out the tip in your head. You can also grow up in a village in india without access to information but be able to solve quantum physics problems.

Knowledge and intelligence, while often associated, are totally different.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5028 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 9:16:38 PM
CrakrJak

"HG: It doesn't take a genius to realize that you can't spend more than your revenue. It doesn't take a PHD to realize it either."

I get what you mean on principle, but obviously you CAN spend more than you make. We've been doing it for several decades and the world keeps spinning. Every administration spent more than they took in including Reagan and Bush 1.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5028 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 9:14:03 PM
lauriloo

I completely agree with what you just said.

I just took umbrage with your more simplified "I am older so I know more" argument.

HumanAction knows I don't see eye to eye with him on his ideas. Which is fine. It is always a good debate. I see things much more like you do.

My biggest problem with his policies is you can't just give poor people money and eliminate housing and food stamps because often times the money won't go to the necessities like housing and food. Being financially responsible takes learning and practice. Plus you have to protect children from their parents. Food stamps go to food. Money could go to $300 Air Jordans leaving the fridge empty.

collegebound
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3740 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 8:06:25 PM
so uh...how about those nicks?

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 7:44:40 PM
And, btw. I don't think people won't "do the right thing" because people are necessarily evil (like you implied with the False Prophet" jab). I think most people wouldn't do it because, unless they have a huge overabundance of wealth, people will always find a reason to spend more money on themselves and especially their family to rise up the prosperity ladder. They will send their kids to better schools, have a nicer home, etc. Sure, that's great for them but doesn't help keep the greater social contract intact. The consequence of that is more poverty and then more crime which comes full circle on those who ignored their social responsibilities.

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 7:19:39 PM
"So then by your rationale an illiterate 70 year old coal miner is able to speak more intelligently on economic policy than a 35 year old economics PHD? "

I'm sorry, is HumanAction a 35 year old economics PhD? His profile says he's a 24 year old business owner. I have no idea what makes him qualified to speak about economics.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17231 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 7:18:14 PM
HG: It doesn't take a genius to realize that you can't spend more than your revenue. It doesn't take a PHD to realize it either.

As I've said before, there are many different kinds of intelligence, it's not all about book learning. There are musical geniuses, artistic geniuses, mechanical geniuses, aesthetic geniuses, science geniuses, philosophic geniuses, etc..

There are also educated idiots and elitist snobs, both of which society could do without.

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 7:15:48 PM
Life experience counts for a lot when you are espousing a theory that depends on knowledge about how humans tend to behave when given choices. The success of HumanAction's theories depend heavily on whether people will "do the right thing" and support each other when given free will about what they will do with their money. Years of seeing the results of partisan politics, failed voting results when money is needed for new schools or some other improvement and, frankly, people on sites like this saying what they would do if they could choose, leads me to believe his theory of people doing the right thing for society-sake just won't work. I remember what it was like to be in my 20s and how idealistic I was. When you are on my side of 25 and travelled as much as I have, you'll finally see what I mean. But you won't see it before then. That's life. Now, if HumanAction actually WORKED FOR THE GOV and had extensive knowledge about how it works, then I would take him more seriously

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 6:23:12 PM
So, is it a cop out if I just say "what they said"?

keith2
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2573 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 6:10:06 PM
This is what happens when you aren't armed 24/7.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5028 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 5:21:15 PM
lauriloo

"it's more the fact that I've lived twice as long as HumanAction that informs my opinion of his theories"

So then by your rationale an illiterate 70 year old coal miner is able to speak more intelligently on economic policy than a 35 year old economics PHD?

Sorry. Age doesn't automatically make you better able to speak on any subjects other than what aging is like.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10287 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 4:31:35 PM
@lauriloo

You've gone from trying to argue to just making irrelevant appeals to your own seniority (or sense thereof). All you're doing is admitting your own bias against us. If you want an intelligent debate you can have it otherwise...


Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10287 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 4:25:56 PM
@HG

So you agree with me that having (or claiming) MENSA membership doesn't necessarily make anyone's point more valid right?

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Wednesday, June 26, 2013 4:22:17 PM
My IQ is 140. But really, it's more the fact that I've lived twice as long as HumanAction that informs my opinion of his theories.

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