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Brutal Home Invasion Caught On Nanny Cam [Graphic]

Hits: 7076 | Rating: (3.3) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
SoCal
Male, 18-29, Western US
 651 Posts
Friday, June 28, 2013 2:10:06 AM
He's black, of course

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 2:40:48 PM
Cajun247 & HumanAction

"I was about to say we went from talking about a brutal home invasion to the economics of healthcare."

Here are SOME of the topics touched on in this thread:

Gun control, gun safety, the death penalty, differences between democrats and republicans, privacy issues, gun murder vs other weapons, partisan politics, libertarianism, rape prevention, religion in politics, gay marriage, abortion, the bailouts, the economy, welfare, medicare, healthcare industry, taxes, MENSA, insurance....

Always enjoy chatting with you guys. So nice when the ideologue spazs keep from interrupting.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10209 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:27:25 PM
I also don't think there has ever been an IAB thread that touched on THIS many tangents.


I was about to say we went from talking about a brutal home invasion to the economics of healthcare.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:21:16 PM
@HolyGod

I also don't think there has ever been an IAB thread that touched on THIS many tangents. ;)

No kidding. It's actually been quite nice not dealing with stupid interruptions though it has been a less-than-productive afternoon.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:15:47 PM
HumanAction

"but the government skimmed from the top to fund other programs."

We should have put it in Al Gore's "lockbox". ;)

Social security is a long term investment. I think there should definitely be steps taken to get back a larger value for the investor. Some sort of ULTRA safe investment in a combination of bonds, precious metals, and very conservative mutual funds. It should well out pace inflation. Also I think you should get back your investment at 65 in a mutual fund account that pays off monthly. That way if you die at 66 your family inherits YOUR money.

You should also be able to borrow against the value of your social security account after let's say 45 for certain things like medical expenses or perhaps a mortgage.

I think there are lots of things you could do differently with social security.

I also don't think there has ever been an IAB thread that touched on THIS many tangents. ;)

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:12:20 PM
@HolyGod

Without government regulation of how much you are allowed to charge, people will charge as much as they can.

Ah, but you're not considering the other half of the puzzle. Let's say they charge a billion dollars. I don't think many people would buy from them. The price must stay at a level where the average target consumer can afford it. If we provide enough cash for everything, then and only then, can they charge "as much as they can".

Does that mean some people are going to get screwed? Yep, it sucks. The other option, where everyone but the doctors get screwed, is far worse.

The government needs to pass some legislation that keeps doctors from fearing those kinds or repercussions and keeps malpractice insurance down.

But they made the tort laws! They're the ones who came up with the stupidity in the first place.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:07:52 PM
@HolyGod

The only time that won't happen is with insurance that is not for profit and the only kind of insurance that is not for profit is government run insurance.

Oh, I see where you were going with it. The problem I see is that you assume the government is going to be fair and stay "not for profit".

We can simply look at social security to see that this assumption is false. Social security was originally set up as a pay-in pay-out system; it sounded great and people were happy. The government, because of political temptation, went on to raid it. That's "for profit". We (society) paid into a system expecting to get equal or greater value back, but the government skimmed from the top to fund other programs. I see no difference between that and a "for profit" organization.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:06:03 PM
HumanAction

"Another big problem I've seen are the stupid tort laws we have."

Absolutely. I think government involvement helps that problem as well. The government needs to pass some legislation that keeps doctors from fearing those kinds or repercussions and keeps malpractice insurance down.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:03:58 PM
HumanAction

"Otherwise, the only real solution is to remove the incentives to over-consume. We need to begin to consider the possibility that a perfect solution simply doesn't exist. We might only really be able to choose between trade-offs."

One issue is that someone needs to step in and regulate prices. Medical professionals need to be VERY well compensated for their work and the time and investment it took to achieve their position. However some are out of control.

When my GF had a C-section the anesthesiologist charged $3,500. Now in my opinion that is absurd for a half hour of work no matter how specialized it is. Without government regulation of how much you are allowed to charge, people will charge as much as they can.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:01:28 PM
@HolyGod

If so how do you solve that problem? AN HSA + HDHP model doesn't really change anything for anything over $2,000.

Well, honestly, I don't think we can "solve" the problem. What we can do is remove the incentives that encourage the overwhelming majority of consumption. Do some people get really hurt or really sick and need more healthcare than $2k? Absolutely; but most of us don't have a major problem other than once or twice in our lives.

Another big problem I've seen are the stupid tort laws we have. I have no idea what happened to the "reasonable man" defense but it's out of control. I've talked with a couple doctors now who simply recommend MRI's for everything because they don't want to get sued. That is a problem.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:58:38 PM
HumanAction

"Nuh-uh. If I go to my primary, get a flu shot, and pay for it with my HSA, then there are no stockholders involved."

Absolutely, my point, which I made in the next post, should have been MAJOR medical decisions, anything over say $2,000. Once the insurance company gets involved, even for an HDHP you still have profit being a concern over patient well being.

The only time that won't happen is with insurance that is not for profit and the only kind of insurance that is not for profit is government run insurance.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:55:50 PM
@HolyGod

So, with that in mind, we need to end up at the conclusion that the only way to keep prices low is to decrease quantity demanded, or to "peg" it by monopolizing the 3rd party (like single payer does). The problem with single payer is that it doesn't actually fix the problem: that demand is too high for supply.

The only reasonable approach then is to control demand. To do so, we could certainly ration through various means (ahem, Canada). Otherwise, the only real solution is to remove the incentives to over-consume. We need to begin to consider the possibility that a perfect solution simply doesn't exist. We might only really be able to choose between trade-offs.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:53:05 PM
Cajun247

"So you go to the clinic that charges $50 X-rays, and the other eventually lowers prices. Your point?"

My point is they don't. In any other industry they would have to but in healthcare they don't.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:51:18 PM
@HolyGod

The ONLY way to keep the concern of stockholders out of medical decisions is to have government provided not for profit health insurance.

Nuh-uh. If I go to my primary, get a flu shot, and pay for it with my HSA, then there are no stockholders involved. Technically, though, my HDHP covers flu shots.

Why do you think that is?

There are multiple reasons, in my opinion. First and foremost, it is because supply can't expand fast enough to match demand increases. In other markets, like retails, new investors can jump into the market if suppliers start to be dicks. Regardless of whether or not it is a good thing (totally different discussion), regulations and license requirements prevent supply from adjusting rapidly.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10209 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:49:52 PM
Fix healthcare? End Medicare.
Fix health insurance? End credits for employer provided health insurance.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10209 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:46:11 PM
Do you think it is because since healthacre is provided through insurance companies for most Americans we don't know, or care, what the cost of our care is over and above our deductible which kinda goes back to your 3rd payer point?


By definition we get the same problem through single payer.

AN HSA + HDHP model doesn't really change anything for anything over $2,000.


Actually HDHP has deductibles that could go as high as $6000.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10209 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:36:59 PM
So you go to the clinic that charges $50 X-rays, and the other eventually lowers prices. Your point?

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:35:09 PM
HumanAction

"It is like the free market system doesn't drive down prices and demand competition like it does in every other sector. Why do you think that is?"

Do you think it is because since healthacre is provided through insurance companies for most Americans we don't know, or care, what the cost of our care is over and above our deductible which kinda goes back to your 3rd payer point?

If so how do you solve that problem? AN HSA + HDHP model doesn't really change anything for anything over $2,000.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:30:03 PM
HumanAction

"That doesn't make any sense. Being a big business is not a sufficient explanation for disproportionate costs. Cable internet is a big business, but it is cheap. McDonalds, Walmart, and Google are all big businesses yet somehow keep their costs low and stable (to inflation)."

I don't know what to tell you. Those businesses do not operate like healthcare. If Walmart is too expensive I'll go to Target. If McDonalds is too expensive I'll go to Burger King. Competition forces low prices. That doesn't happen in healthcare and I can't quite tell you why.

When my son broke his arm I shopped around for Xrays. Some places charged $50 some places charged $250+. I can't think of a SINGLE other industry where that kind of enormous cost difference for the exact same service exists.

It is like the free market system doesn't drive down prices and demand competition like it does in every other sector. Why do you think that is?

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:25:10 PM
HumanAction

"stockholders should NEVER be a concern and unfortunately in our system it is

I agree entirely, which I why I want individuals to take control of their own healthcare. HSA + HDHP is the way to go. I cannot stand the HMO market.

As for the government insurance, well of course you know I'll end up disagreeing with it."

How can you make those two statements? The ONLY way to keep the concern of stockholders out of medical decisions is to have government provided not for profit health insurance. Health should not be a for profit venture.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:18:45 PM
@HolyGod

The problem I see is that in this country healthcare is big business.

That doesn't make any sense. Being a big business is not a sufficient explanation for disproportionate costs. Cable internet is a big business, but it is cheap. McDonalds, Walmart, and Google are all big businesses yet somehow keep their costs low and stable (to inflation).

stockholders should NEVER be a concern and unfortunately in our system it is

I agree entirely, which I why I want individuals to take control of their own healthcare. HSA + HDHP is the way to go. I cannot stand the HMO market.

As for the government insurance, well of course you know I'll end up disagreeing with it.


HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:14:56 PM
@HolyGod

However the fact that most third payer countries have LOWER healthcare costs than the USA kind of irrefutably refutes that position doesn't it?

No, no it doesn't. It actually proves my point very well. The US is a third party payer system the same as those other countries just through somewhat different means. Whereas we have HMO and Medicare/Medicaid, they had government. In both cases, they are third party payers. The difference is that those countries have a single payer system which holds the cost down somewhat. Just as our expenditures are exploding, so are theirs.

A single payer system would be cheaper than ours, but will still suffer a bubble. That they are all experiencing a bubble over the last few decades supports my position.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 12:04:50 PM
HumanAction

"It's paradoxical to complain about rising healthcare costs and, at the same time, support a 3rd party payer system. Demand will increase, and price will follow. The supply of medicine cannot expand enough to keep prices down."

I agree with you on principle. What you are saying makes total sense. However the fact that most third payer countries have LOWER healthcare costs than the USA kind of irrefutably refutes that position doesn't it?

The problem I see is that in this country healthcare is big business. In my opinion healthcare should not be a for profit business. When deciding what treatment a person should get, stockholders should NEVER be a concern and unfortunately in our system it is.

I'd like to see bare bones but effective hospitals which take government health insurance. Then have private insurance and private hospitals with specialists and nicer facilities and let the consumer make the choice.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4778 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:57:07 AM
Cajun247

Not sure where you are going with that. Of course life threatening issues take precedent. I think you are arguing against an argument I'm not making. There is a miscommunication somewhere.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10209 Posts
Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:48:29 AM
@HolyGod

The fact of the matter is that the needs of a child with a broken finger, and a possibly overprotective parent, in no way shape or form outweighs the needs of people in which every day come to the hospital with conditions that could kill them within hour. The latter are always priority to the ER as that IS the most economical and humane thing to do. I honestly understand how seeing your child hurt can be upsetting, but it's a risk you and your spouse undeniably accept by having and raising them.

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