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10 Interesting Facts About Chernobyl

Hits: 10111 | Rating: (3.2) | Category: Weird | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 1 2 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
pfkdxius
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 315 Posts
Friday, May 24, 2013 11:59:29 AM
Not to interrupt your communism discussion, but point 10 is bullpoo, nuclear plants can not explode like an atomic bomb.

They can explode for conventional reasons (steam pressure, hydrogen) and spread radioactivity, but never create an explosion "10X bigger than Hiroshima".

OldOllie
Male, 60-69, Midwest US
 14431 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 11:09:38 PM
@patchgrabber ...they wouldn't have paid people just to sit on their a$$es...

Then you agree, they never practiced true Communism.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 3:13:39 PM
This was @MrPeabody's link:
here

This is the links link, the quoted info is on the bottom left of page 24 not 34, sorry hit the wrong button, its dark in my room because the light bulb is out.
here

And this is the Links links misrepresented source "A true discourse of the present state of Virginia". (Reprinted 1957) You can access it on the left column. The type of government is on page "xv" and the quote is on the next page "xvi."
here

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 2:56:19 PM
The Colony's manpower was divided into bands of fifteen, each under a captain. The council would then elect a president.

Captain Ralph Hamor was noting the wonderfulness and exuberance of each citizen to have finally received any food from crops after being attacked and having several gory battles with the Indians, finally taking their land. They would work as hard as they could to survive. Not the benefits of a new economic system.

Infact when Captain John Smith became the colony's leader in September 1608, the fourth in a succession of council presidents and established a "no work, no food" policy.

@MrPeabody was correct in his review of his link, but his links linked information was incorrect and politically charged, leading to misconceptions down the line.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 2:38:14 PM
Ok I read the link @MrPeabody gave and the link this link gives. Apparently the same lines he quoted at Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:19:36 AM were copy and pasted from the original political document on page 34. It references Captain Ralph Hamor's "A True Discourse of the Present State of Virginia"

James town was not a communism but a council government of 15 captains.

The whole quote is:

"When our people were fed out of the common store and laboured
jointly in the manuring of the ground and planting corn, glad was that man that could slip from his labour, nay the most honest of them in a general business would not take
so much faithful and true pains in a week as now he will do
in a day; neither cared they for the increase, presuming
that howsoever their harvest prospered, the general store must maintain them, by which means we reaped not so much
corn from the labours of twenty men as three men have done for themselves."

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:37:37 PM
@patchgrabber: Np, "it is human to error" as it were, especially me, as pointed out . Its one reason I appreciate these sorts of debates its humbling and enlightening all in one. Very healthy.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5718 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:31:20 PM
@richanddead: I see. I was aware of the conditions of the land in Jamestown, but I was under the impression that they were more concerned with gold and silver. I must have been mistaken.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:30:04 PM
Sry I was so one sided, but I think you both were wrong. You for your comment and @MrPeabody for his link to Jamestown. Maybe I was wrong for not reading his comment more thoroughly and for that I apologize.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:26:57 PM
@patchgrabber: I'm am actually unaware of how this was due to laziness. Even the "gentlemen" were helping to trade and farm.

I believe @MrPeabody is mistakenly comparing Plymouth to the The Virginia Company report of 1610 which said as much in describing the almost universal "idleness and bestial sloth" of Jamestown's population.

I am unaware of the full economics of Plymouth, but I know that early Jamestown was early unsuccessful economically becauses of misplaced expectations, lack of knowledge of the area, famine and disease. It was a struggle simply to survive, I don't think they cared about economic theories much, it was more of a Hobbs-like state of nature government, rather then then a formal government.

I was commenting on your statement "they were initially only concerned with gold and silver, of which there was none. They were so concerned for this that they didn't plant crops."

Sry I was so one sided, but

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5718 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:59:35 PM
@richanddead: So if I take your assessment as accurate, and they were starving because they couldn't plant crops, how is that due to laziness?

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5718 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:56:45 PM
Lol, patchgrabber thinks you're a Republitard if you think Communism is a bad and inefficient system.

I think you're confusing my refusal to accept a bad argument as tacit approval of communism, which I don't by the way. Did you ask if I think pure communism can work in its pure form? No, you didn't; if you had you might be surprised to find that I don't think it would, albeit not for the reasons you think. It's human nature that would screw it up in the long run; there are ways to combat laziness, such as (re-)introducing labour credits, but then you have to get away from the "pure" versions of these things that cannot function in their "pure" state in the first place, because you cannot assume people will conform to an ideal of what they themselves are not. You will always have to tweak the original ideology to fit your own needs.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:51:11 PM
The Powhatan Indians food supplies were low the first year because of the draught and so they could not trade it. They had still dug a planting bed and tried to farm but the results were minimal. Yet they felt ok because they had brought enough supplies to make it through the winter. That was until a fire on January 7th burned the church and most of the colony’s provisions, including the food supplies.

They even built a wall around the fields in 1608 because people began to be attacked while tilling the soil and sowing seeds. Anyone can visit the site and see exactly where it was and there are journal entries about it.

They were desperate for food! Some joined local indian tribes for food and there is even evidence of cannibalism because of people starving. Don't rewrite history.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:49:58 PM
@patchgrabber: "Also in Jamestown they were initially only concerned with gold and silver, of which there was none. They were so concerned for this that they didn't plant crops."

That is not true, the area chosen for the original fort was chosen because there were no native Americans.
The native americans were not there because the soil was horrible for planting crops. It was swampland with brackish water, acidic soil, and was entrenched with roots. Not to mention it was during the worst drought in 800 years and it lasted until 1613.(obvious global warming)
It made the water especially salty with no freshwater springs, and if that all wasn't bad enough, they arrived too late in the year to plant crops in mid-may. Not to mention the plans called for enough seed for them to plant european crops and then acquire the rest through trade with the local indians.

Zieveraar
Male, 30-39, Europe
 403 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:27:42 PM
Forget werewolves, think direwolves! Godzilla sized wolves destroying Moscow.

And everybody knows that communism works, in theory anyway.

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:01:44 PM
Lol, patchgrabber thinks you're a Republitard if you think Communism is a bad and inefficient system.

And that's ignoring that the Soviet Union wasn't even that extreme, they were Socialist through and through.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 11:13:07 AM
Communism is an economic theory that requires "abundance" to function, as you correctly said, but because of it's inefficiencies.

Capitalism can function in any environment and/or time and this gives it a resilience, dependability, and ubiquitous nature that communism simply does not possess.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 10:50:20 AM
It simply kills incentive, and it's bases in socialism creates inefficiencies in price and investiture. A socialist economy does not respond to price signals, it seeks to manipulate them for a sense of quality, whether it be for morality, fairness, or well being. It bases economic planning on projections instead of current market acceptance and equilibrium price thereby investing in products that may never be needed or sold. This causes major budget inefficiencies and knowledge. It leads to an overall retardation of the economic structure of the effected society.

Capitalism has many faults as well, monopolies, social inequality, unfair distributions of wealth and power, and a general heartlessness to name a few. But it is the most reliable form of economics because of it ability to quickly adapt to change, it's efficiency, and that it drives incentive to better the conditions of oneself.

richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 1953 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 10:50:10 AM
@patchgrabber: You're right in that it was not pure communism, but only because pure communism is a near terminal stage of communism where material and productive forces are at optimum levels to allow a freedom from any sort of necessity and thereby any government. But it requires global communism so that a no government is needed to react to influences by other remaining nation-states. Either because of war, different income classes, trade competition, or incentive to become greater than ones own society.

Yet to reach these terminal stages of communism, the Utopian, Primitive, and/or Religious Communism's need to actually work more effectively than free market and mixed market economies. This is what they have all failed to do and the reason why there has never been as sustainable form of communism.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5718 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:34:52 AM
Also in Jamestown they were initially only concerned with gold and silver, of which there was none. They were so concerned for this that they didn't plant crops.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5718 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:21:55 AM
@mrpeabody: They had a governor, that's not pure communism. You also hold this up as a shining example of communism's inevitable failure, without understanding the process of how communism is formed. Of course top-down communism doesn't work. Also realize that communism could not have been attempted at that time because the means of production had not created an abundance. All communal models either fail or don't expand because they are based on idealism and not materialism. Communism doesn't just come out of the blue; after socialism is built and creates the sufficient resources necessary, then communism can be created through the disestablishment of the bureaucracy. That being said the pilgrims followed a bureaucratic collectivist model.

MrPeabody
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 1795 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:19:36 AM
Jamestown, the first permanent English colony in America, established in Virginia in 1607, had an experience similar to .. Plymouth. Early years of starvation were followed by converting to a system of property rights and a free market, which brought abundance. Under collectivism, less than half of every shipload of settlers survived the first 12 months at Jamestown. Most of the work was done by only one-fifth of the men, to whom the socialist system gave the same rations as to the others. During the winter of 1609-10, called "The Starving Time,” the population fell from 500 to 60.

But when Jamestown converted to a free market, there was "plenty of food, which every man by his own industry may easily and doth procure,” wrote the colony secretary Ralph Hamor in 1614. Under the previous system, he said, "we reaped not so much corn from the labors of thirty men as three men have done for themselves now.


MrPeabody
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 1795 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:09:45 AM
vv quote below refers to Plymouth, not Jamestown, but it mirrors what happened at Jamestown.

MrPeabody
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 1795 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 8:50:44 AM
@patchgrabber
According to their original governing document, the Mayflower Compact, they shared everything produced by any one of them .. from each according to his ability and to each according to his need. The result was that only a small percentage of them worked hard, and the rest were freeloaders to varying degrees. Then, in the spring of 1623, the surviving colonists decided to let each person keep the fruits of his labor, and the colony's total output increased so much that they were never hungry again. Communism was killing the colonists at Plymouth Rock, and by switching to a free market system, they became more productive and saved themselves .. in a single growing season.

MrPeabody
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 1795 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 8:39:53 AM
@patchgrabber
Try not to be so much of a republitard, they wouldn't have paid people just to sit on their a$$es, you still have to work and contribute to get paid. But hey, strawmen never get old.


It's exactly what happened in 1600's Jamestown.
Try searching for Jamestown communism.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25772 Posts
Thursday, May 23, 2013 8:07:36 AM
@thefatviking: Ah! Thanks for that! I knew about the cloud but had no idea the way it was discovered!
Interesting!

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