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Homicide Rates Before Guns? [Pic+]

Hits: 8696 | Rating: (1.9) | Category: Science | Added by: 5Cats
Page: 1 24 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25647 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 3:53:07 PM
By truth you mean a graph with no sources...

Um, @Canoas? The graph is the ONLY thing with a listed source! Fail!

...that doesn't even remotely correlate with firearm ownership?

Um? If you'd BOTHERED to read the SHORT article? He mentions that firearms start appearing around 1200, and become fairly widespread later on. Sorry there's no ARROWS to point at those details for you, you actually have to USE YOU'RE BRAIN to figure out that after guns start showing up? Murder rates drop.
(sic)

supplying all firearms anyone can illegally smuggle into the country?

The EXACT same thing can be said for ANY country on Earth! About ANY law which restricts ownership of ANYTHING.
Pot for example? Get it yet?
Even "closed societies" have smuggling problems, DUH!

Canoas
Male, 18-29, Europe
 429 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 3:52:19 PM
@HumanAction
"Am I now correct in understanding that you actually have no data to stand upon?"

As long as your data is correct then I'll gladly use the same data you do so you don't accuse me of using bullpoo studies. Post it up.

Canoas
Male, 18-29, Europe
 429 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 3:49:27 PM
@HumanAction
"Compared to other nations, Australia's rate of decline stagnated immediately following their ban."

That is indeed true. The problem is that you're too stupid to understand what it even means. If firearms are causing an increased homicide rate, even if it's declining, then removing them will also remove the declining gun related homicides. It's pretty simple.. how you fail to grasp this concept is beyond me.

@5Cats
"In America (and MANY other countries) you CAN INDEED own: tanks, machine guns, explosives, rockets (of various kinds, eh? sometimes called "fireworks")."

You can own tanks, but you don't have access to the ammunition. You can have explosives, but not high-grade explosives. You can own machine-guns in some states, but the legal ones stopped being manufactured 30 years ago and are extremely limited and expensive. A firework is not a rocket launcher, any retard knows that.. I'm surprised you don't. A

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25647 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 3:46:12 PM
@HOBYandy: It's just an accumulation of averages dude...

I imagine they check it against monthly reported statistics, eh? It's just the same as every other counter on the internets...

@Andrew155: Exactly! The SCotUS used to agree that slavery was OK (according to the constitution) now they think otherwise.

It's ENTIRELY up to the SCotUS to "interpret" it and up to the 3 Offices (President, House and Senate) to enforce OR change it.

Obama's "plan" of just IGNORING it is really NOT a valid option... unless EVERYONE ELSE agrees to ignore it too. (Which isn't happening, so there!)

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 3:43:38 PM
@Canoas

I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean.

Shocking.

Raw numbers is what data is supposed to look like.

Yes - though the way you REPRESENT data will likely need to take another form to be meaningful.

If your data is anything but raw numbers then it's useless bullpoo.

Yes - and if you REPRESENT your data as simply raw numbers, then it is similarly useless.

Perhaps I was being overly generous assuming you actual had some simple homicide statistics on which you based your claims? Obviously you were not using homicide rates over a span of time, so I believe my assumption was fair. Am I now correct in understanding that you actually have no data to stand upon?

Canoas
Male, 18-29, Europe
 429 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 3:38:14 PM
@McGovern
Mexico borders the US. Do you think their ban will make a difference when there's a country right next to them supplying all firearms anyone can illegally smuggle into the country? The lack of proper gun control affects other countries too.

@5Cats
By truth you mean a graph with no sources that doesn't even remotely correlate with firearm ownership? If that's what you consider truth then I can make a million graphs proving your own stupidity.

@HumanAction
"However, you're..."
your.
"...limited intellect..."
I'm pretty sure a limited intellect is the norm.
"...seems to be incapable of representing data in any manner other than simple raw numbers."
I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean. Raw numbers is what data is supposed to look like. If your data is anything but raw numbers then it's useless bullpoo.

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 2:40:46 PM
7th amendment is a really horrible example to prove that it's a living document. It's never been brought to the Supreme Court, but I suspect that if it were brought to the Supreme Court, they would interpret it as meaning 20 dollars in the 1700's, which would be hundreds now.

Arguments for a living constitution are pretty easy, since it's quite the inevitability. You can basically justify anything by the Constitution based on how you choose interpret it. It can be pro-choice or pro-life, it can call for social programs, or none at all. It's all what you choose it to have, really.

HOBYandy
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3067 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 1:52:30 PM
This site has SO many problems. Can we talk about that "counter" up in the right hand corner for a second? The one that updates every couple seconds, like it is all-knowing or something...

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5021 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 1:41:45 PM
AuburnJunky

"The constitution is not a living document. It is meant to apply forever, regardless of technological advancement."

Well I have read the constitution. Are you familiar with the 7th amendment?

Read it.

We didn't amend that through congress, we just had enough common f.ucking sense to say, ok times have changed since 1789, this really doesn't need to be followed verbatim because it no longer makes sense.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25647 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 1:25:35 PM
the fact that after a country bans firearms the homicide and suicide rate drops.

@Canoas: You got some, you know, FACTS to back that up?
Australia: Murder unchanged, Suicide slightly lower
England: M = up! S = unchanged
Canada: M = unchanged S = slightly higher
Mexico: M = MASSIVE increase! idk about suicide.
Venezuela: M =MASSIVE increase! I'd bet suicide is higher too. And rape. And kidnapping... Worst country on Earth, really, and Hugo BANNED and SIEZED the guns first thing!

So: Which countries have seen proof of your theory?

A line has to be drawn.

A line IS DRAWN! The USA HAS restrictions & controls already! You want to MOVE that line? You need a better reason than "I'm scared of guns" OK? Eh? Geez...

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25647 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 1:20:14 PM
So you also think people should be able to own grenades, high-grade explosives, heavy machine guns, rocket launchers and tanks?

@canoas: Before you beat that DEAD HORSE again? Please DO edumicate yourself: In America (and MANY other countries) you CAN INDEED own: tanks, machine guns, explosives, rockets (of various kinds, eh? sometimes called "fireworks").

DUH! Please leave that dead horse alone!

@LordJim: You know of other research or data on the subject? Unless you got better, don't whine...

@Evil_Eye: Then overturn the 2nd Amendment! Simple really... meanwhile, following the Constitution of the USA is every American's duty.

I find it incredibly interesting that...

Nicely said @humanaction! Gun-grabbers LIVE by the double standard, eh? Without it? They have nothing...

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25647 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 1:14:06 PM
Social stability, policing and culture reduced violence.

@Byfield: That is correct! And moot too.
The question is: did guns PROMOTE policing, culture and stability?

I'd say "yes"! A group of pre-gun thugs armed with spears and knives is easily able to overpower anyone they outnumber (except mounted knights in full armour, which cost a FORTUNE!).
With guns? Better trained and disciplined "police" can reverse this.
Armed civilians are LESS fearful of thugs and bandits, leading to much happier lives!
Armed civilians are also able to resist "legal thugs" like warlords or despotic Kings (Barons & etc). How well would Robin Hood do without his weapons? Not well at all..

@DrProfessor: he mentions in the article that it's FAR from "proof" of anything.

@HolyGod: Good for you! I'm a terrible shot! Broadsides of barns are safe around me...

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25647 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 1:07:00 PM
@Canoas: Trolling? Moi? You just don't like hearing the truth... or at least hearing what you disagree with, eh?

@normalfreak2: Yeah, the guy says plain as day that there's VERY little research into this specific area...

@EvilEye: OK, so why haven't gun murder rates gone UP? The overall murder rate has dropped, the gun murder rate (in the USA) keeps dropping... your argument is in fact supporting MY position!

@Canoas: Your allegory is false: "dog pit fights" are like ARMIES AT WAR and are NOT counted in "murder statistics" OK? Geez dude...

And again: Armies have killed each other AND civilians LONG before guns arrived.

@HolyGod: Microwaves came to Europe in the 1400s? WOW! News to me!

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 12:54:00 PM
@Canoas

The problem is that your tiny mind fails to grasp the fact that after a country bans firearms the homicide and suicide rate drops.

If this were true, then that would be excellent. However, you're limited intellect seems to be incapable of representing data in any manner other than simple raw numbers.

Compared to Australia's rate of decline after banning firearms (7 year span), the US revocation of the first assault weapons ban was 40 fold more effective in reducing homicide.

The fact of the matter is that the Australia ban actually stunted the already declining homicide rate. Compared to other nations, Australia's rate of decline stagnated immediately following their ban.

But you probably can't grasp this concept.

McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 13431 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 12:53:29 PM
The problem is that your tiny mind fails to grasp the fact that after a country bans firearms the homicide and suicide rate drops.


Tell that to Mexico guess they didn't get the memo......

Canoas
Male, 18-29, Europe
 429 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 12:41:18 PM
"Freedom to bear arms means, freedom to bear arms, period. It doesn't mean freedom to bear SOME arms. "
Nor does it mean freedom to bear ALL arms. A line has to be drawn.

Canoas
Male, 18-29, Europe
 429 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 12:37:16 PM
"I find it incredibly interesting that so many of the people on this thread complaining about "correlation NOT causation" also believe it is appropriate to compare homicide rates between the US and UK as if to imply some causation between firearm ownership and homicide from such a simple correlation. "

The problem is that your tiny mind fails to grasp the fact that after a country bans firearms the homicide and suicide rate drops. It's not about comparing a country that encourages firearms with one that bans them, it's about observing the change that a firearm ban brings to a country that had a high firearm per capita ratio.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 12:21:43 PM
I find it incredibly interesting that so many of the people on this thread complaining about "correlation NOT causation" also believe it is appropriate to compare homicide rates between the US and UK as if to imply some causation between firearm ownership and homicide from such a simple correlation.

We could easily suggest that the discrepancy in homicide rates between European countries and the US is due to kinder eggs being legal in Europe; obviously kinder eggs save lives.

This double standard is absurd.

auburnjunky
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 10122 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 12:01:08 PM
"Patriot them up all you like but time changes everything and it has and will again change your constitution."

You misunderstand.

Change it all you want. Do it legally, with a vote by our representatives. I am okay with this.

My problem, is changing the INTERPRETATION over time. Saying one thing means one thing one time, then saying it means something different later. Preposterous.

Freedom to bear arms means, freedom to bear arms, period. It doesn't mean freedom to bear SOME arms.

If you don't like it, change it. Good luck with that by the way. ;)

McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 13431 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 11:56:53 AM
I just fail to see the necessity of fringe assault weapons.


Define assualt weapon.

Here it is I've got my ticket to fame!!

McGoverns law: In a gun debate anti-gunners when out of valid argument will retort to bringing up weapons of mass destrution and/or penis size.

Evil_Eye
Male, 18-29, Europe
 1451 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 11:53:12 AM
@auburnjunky: "The constitution is not a living document. It is meant to apply forever, regardless of technological advancement."

Bring back the Eighteenth Amendment if you feel that way. They changed that because development proved it was not necessary and needed to be changed.
There has been rules and laws for as old as written time, would be hard to follow all of them since many would contradict newer ones. And that is what the amendments are... rules your country agreed to.
Patriot them up all you like but time changes everything and it has and will again change your constitution. Deal with it.

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 11:50:54 AM
Causation/correlation problems.

It would be much more helpful if it only focused on the 1910-2013 period. During that period, semi-automatic technology existed, as well as modernity.

But if you look at statistics in England and Australia, the murder rates seem to move independent of gun laws in force before and after the 90's when they were mostly put in place. Low before, low after. And in America, there are states with loose gun laws and British murder rates (New Hampshire, Minnesota, Iowa), while there are some with loose gun laws and Mexican murder rates (Louisiana).

Complex system. Complex analysis.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4625 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 11:46:55 AM
Canoas-"So you also think people should be able to own grenades, high-grade explosives, heavy machine guns, rocket launchers and tanks?"

You might want to edit your pitiful argument that you keep trotting out.

It is entirely legal to own heavy machine guns and tanks.

auburnjunky
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 10122 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 11:38:02 AM
I missed the "heavy machine gun" part.

Most definitely yes. people do own them, legally, already.

LordJim
Male, 50-59, Europe
 4578 Posts
Monday, May 20, 2013 11:37:56 AM
Arguably the most useless graph ever.

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