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Do Men Really Earn More Than Women? [Pic]

Hits: 9320 | Rating: (2.4) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: Andrew155
Page: 1 2 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4367 Posts
Tuesday, May 07, 2013 1:01:32 PM
Andrew155-"I was the one who said the sexists were thoroughly routed"

And so you were.

Sorry Angillon..Got Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V happy.

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Tuesday, May 07, 2013 11:01:36 AM
McGrendel, I was the one who said the sexists were thoroughly routed, not Angillon. And seeing as I posted this link, it's obvious that I'm referring to people like Madduck as the ultimate sexist bigots.

madduck
Female, 50-59, Europe
 5413 Posts
Tuesday, May 07, 2013 9:14:43 AM
Megrendel- when I started work there had been an equal pay act for about eight years, but men had different job titles and were paid about 20% more than women for the same job. They have amended that now - but I gave it as an example of how recently women were legally second class citizens. Around 150 years ago (no time at all really) middle class women had to be innocent children on the surface, but tough leaders in private- with no legal recourse- their husbands word was law. It takes time for attitudes to change, it takes time for the law to change, and it takes time to even things out. The best analogy I know is this- if you have a 1000meter running race with two contestants - one runs normally and the other has one leg tied up behind them. If you let them run for a minute then unbind that runner they will not be close to catching up by the end. You either let the race go on for long enough to even out- or give the other a handicap.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4367 Posts
Tuesday, May 07, 2013 6:16:14 AM
Angilion-"The Egyptian influence on medieval English law was indirect and tenuous"

The point was, of course, that all civilizations have been influenced by those that came before it.

Angilion-"The sexists have been thoroughly routed here."

What sexists? Are you calling anyone with enough common sense that realizes the 'gender wage gap' is a fabricated fallacy?

Back when I worked a job where several people worked the same job classification, if a woman worked the same classification as a man, she got paid the same. The ONLY variances I've seen in wage was due to seniority, and worked in both directions (women with more seniority than me made more, less than me made less).

The only earnings variances I saw was due to the overtime worked by the individual (and yes, we had a girl who refused any overtime, then thought it was unfair that her annual earnings was less...but then, she was an idiot).

madduck
Female, 50-59, Europe
 5413 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 11:25:11 PM
I was off to bed angillion- but law is a fluid thing. Women where in effect chattels by about 1750- their property transferred to their husband on married and they did not have a right to their children in they separated ( check dates- just up) they had to give up work upon marriage well into the 20th century, Equal pay had to wait until 1970, marital rape was legal until 1980...

Andrew155
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2564 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 3:59:34 PM
The sexists have been thoroughly routed here.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11275 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 3:54:37 PM
Hmm...actually, I was wrong. Madduck used the present tense, which is obviously wrong. There aren't any feudal lords in England today and haven't been for a while.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11275 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 3:52:32 PM
Although there was a quite surprising amount of medieval English law running counter to that (e.g. inalienable rights for all free English people regardless of wealth or power came in formally in 1215), madduck was right to say that it favoured feudal lords. It wasn't utterly one-sided and peasant women could and did bring (and win) court cases against feudal lords, but it did favour the nobility and it did favour the sexed roles that were traditional in Norman nobility.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11275 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 3:40:56 PM
If you don't realize Egyptians, Incas, Aztecs and all of human history has influenced our laws and our way of lifes, then you demonstrate tremendous ignorance.


1) None of those people wrote medieval English law, which is what madduck referred to.

2) The people who did write medieval English law didn't even know of the existence of the Incans and Aztecs, which rules out even influence.

3) The Egyptian influence on medieval English law was indirect and tenuous. It certainly wasn't as much of an influence as the medieval English influence on medieval English law.

Even afterwards, it's clear that the main influence on English common law (and thus on other legal systems based on it) was medieval English law, which was most strongly influenced by medieval Norman law...which was written by wealthy Norman men predominantly for the benefit of wealthy Normans and the sexed roles their culture had.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11275 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 3:34:01 PM
Angilion-"why there are more women than men in those jobs"

Because more women are more willing to take such a job than men.



If you had read more than the first line of my post, you would have seen a more meaningful answer to the question.

Angilion-"Sexual equality"

Is not going to change the mind of a woman who wants a part-time job so she can spend more time with the kids.



Who said it would? I didn't, so who do you think you're making a counter-argument to? What it would do is to make the *average* choices closer. Why are you talking about part time jobs, anyway?


MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4367 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 2:12:14 PM
madduck-"Influence to an extent possibly - not wrote."

Ignorance confirmed.

madduck
Female, 50-59, Europe
 5413 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 2:03:37 PM
Influence to an extent possibly - not wrote. Big difference duckie.... try not to live up to your name dear, I am off to bed.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4367 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 1:58:25 PM
Angilion-"why there are more women than men in those jobs"

Because more women are more willing to take such a job than men.

Angilion-"Sexual equality"

Is not going to change the mind of a woman who wants a part-time job so she can spend more time with the kids.

madduck-"The Incas and Aztecs etc did not write our laws"

If you don't realize Egyptians, Incas, Aztecs and all of human history has influenced our laws and our way of lifes, then you demonstrate tremendous ignorance.

madduck
Female, 50-59, Europe
 5413 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 1:23:54 PM
anteconomist- most of us live in Europe or the states- The Incas and Aztecs etc did not write our laws- neither did the Pharoahs. . English law and European law does indeed favour feudal lords... it was mostly written by them. Systems such as Welsh law got pushed out- because it did not have primogeniture.

Canoas
Male, 18-29, Europe
 429 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 1:08:26 PM
"Sickening. This doesn't even come close to accounting for all the studies that have come back with the gender gap result.

And for one thing, we have to ask - why is it that 'female jobs' are less well-paid?"

Most studies just check the average income for males and females, not by their actual profession.
Also, it's not a "female job", such a thing does not exist, it's simply a job that attracts more females than males. How many teachers are female? Probably over 90%. How many electronic engineers are male? Probably over 90%. Want to guess which of them pays more?

AntEconomist
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 254 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 1:05:42 PM
"Wealthy white men, no one else really benefits but them..."

Really, the Egyptian pharaohs were white men? The Chinese emperors? The Incans? The Aztecs?

Regardless, even if all those who are rich belong to demographic X, this does not mean that all those who belong to demographic X are rich.

Unfortunately, we craft our discrimination laws as if "all those who belong to demographic X are rich," ironically creating the reverse set of rules that you claim exist.

madduck
Female, 50-59, Europe
 5413 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 12:45:10 PM
We are picking up the pieces from a society with rules written to favour a particular group of people. Wealthy white men, no one else really benefits but them- so slowly we try to unpick what they did. But those rules have been written and our whole society based on them- so we are taught from childhood that girls should be soft, submissive, hardworking - to cook, clean rear children. Men should be big, strong and brave.....to provide, defend, build - mostly rubbish. Ultimately we will get rid of these attitudes I think- but it will take time and jostling.

Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
 33910 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 11:45:38 AM

"Why is it that 'female jobs' are less well-paid?"

They aren't "female" jobs. They are low paying jobs but women are more likely to go into those fields. Usually this is caregiver positions or working with non-profit organizations.

Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
 33910 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 11:43:34 AM

madduck - I'm all for men staying at home with the kids. Some one should and father/mother it's the families choice. Be we were discussing what is, not what we want it to be.

50/50 split taking care of the kids? That has not been my observation. Women are more likely to call in sick if their kid is ill and generally take more time off because of their kids. Personally I don't like to hire women of child-bearing years.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11275 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 11:26:22 AM
People differ, some men would make fantastic full time parents, some women excellent plumbers. We should treat people as people- not just lump them into two groups..


Sometimes, I seriously wonder why something so obviously true isn't so normal that it's not an issue. Individuals are...individuals. Why isn't that such as obvious thing that it would underpin everything and pass unnoticed? Instead, it's actually an unusual position and people like you and me are a bit odd for thinking that way.

homo sapiens sapiens my arse. Intelligence, sure, but wisdom seems a bit lacking in humanity. Treating all of humanity living and dead as two entities named "men" and "women" isn't just unwise, it's downright insane. Yet it's quite normal and deeply engrained in politics.

madduck
Female, 50-59, Europe
 5413 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 11:16:29 AM
I was raised by a grandmother who should never have married, or had children, she should have been a business woman. People differ, some men would make fantastic full time parents, some women excellent plumbers. We should treat people as people- not just lump them into two groups..

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11275 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 11:10:53 AM
and I agree Angillion- sexism affects everyone and is ridiculous.


It's nice to know I'm not the only weirdo :)

Some aspects of sexed roles did make sense in the past, but those days are long gone. Very few people are semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers living in small tribes nowadays and sexed roles based on that life aren't the best match for this one. They fit to some extent even as recently as a few hundred years ago, since they fit to some extent in a rural agrarian society with a low population density and no modern technology, but they don't fit now. They're like building a car with a mechanical horse or cow at the front that pulls the car - yes, horses and cows were needed to pull carriages in the past, but it's a ridiculous way to power a modern car.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11275 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 10:58:50 AM
Which leads on to the question of why there are more women than men in those jobs...and parenting forms a large part of that answer because they are jobs that allow for more time with children. If you're away from home from 0700 to 1900 6 days a week because your commuting and your job requires it, you're hardly going to even see your young children when they're awake, let alone feed them, bathe them, play with them and all the myriad of other things that young children need.

So women tend to get pushed one way and men tend to get pushed the other because both childcare and money are required, e.g. food needs to be bought as well as prepared and given to the kid.

Sexual equality, and I mean actual sexual equality and not feminism or masculism, would fix pretty much all of this but it's such a radical idea and faces such organised and politicised opposition that it doesn't seem to be on the cards any time soon.

AntEconomist
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 254 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 10:55:04 AM
JacobTrue13: You have the causality backward. Plenty of studies have shown a propensity for females to select jobs that provide for a better home-life work-life balance. Those jobs, on average, pay less. In short, it's not that "female jobs" are less well-paid than it is that females (on average) are willing to tradeoff lower pay for more work-life flexibility.

(Of course, this isn't true in every case - so forget about specific examples - it's true on average, and that's all that's necessary to skew the numbers.)

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11275 Posts
Monday, May 06, 2013 10:48:50 AM
And for one thing, we have to ask - why is it that 'female jobs' are less well-paid?


Usually because they don't require as much time, either in working towards them (qualifications, silly hours to work up the ladder, etc) or simply because they involve less hours of work per week. A large part of the "gender" gap is simply down to hours worked per week. Working more hours a week will usually attract more pay, either as a straightforward hourly wage or as a greater chance of a larger pay rise on a salary or as a greater chance of a promotion to a job with a higher salary. Little or nothing of the "gender" gap is actually caused by sex - it's correlation, not causation.

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