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Which Religion Cares Most About the Homeless [Pic]

Hits: 8353 | Rating: (2.6) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: Draculya
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
ak47reaper
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 117 Posts
Thursday, May 09, 2013 1:07:40 PM
patchgrabber,

monsterzero already tried that he got counter trolled.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Friday, May 03, 2013 10:30:20 AM
Sorry to have troubled you @Angilion (and @patchy too!)

Cheers!

SavageChef
Female, 50-59, Western US
 2203 Posts
Friday, May 03, 2013 2:39:00 AM
Wait, like, what? You have to declare before you can give this schlub money? I'd just say I'm a Reform Drooeed, No, not Druid. We're an offshoot. We believe that goats are sacred, but we also eat them. Because they are tasty, but also because we believe we come closer to the holy spirit every time we choke on a horn fragment,. Fekker. For a college paper, you've already failed. Also, your hat is shiny.

Oh. that is your head? Sorry. Here is a dollar.

ak4775
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 369 Posts
Thursday, May 02, 2013 7:32:56 PM
Omg! A long winded diatribe about religion! I'm shocked. Here's my 2 cents then.
Religion is the crutch of the weak minded who are scared to death about the doubt in the back of their minds that there is NOTHING AFTER DEATH.
Suckers...

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11341 Posts
Thursday, May 02, 2013 6:19:06 PM
I'm going to repeat myself as a final summary:

I do not have to take a faith-based position and declare that I know the truth regardless of the lack of proof - I do not have to believe.

You cannot force me to do so, no matter how many times you repeat yourself or shout.

I will not embrace faith just because you tell me that it's impossible not to. You are wrong and silly.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11341 Posts
Thursday, May 02, 2013 6:16:22 PM
OK, I'm done.

You are a perfect example of the most annoying thing about people who have a ludicrously dogmatic belief system that they are utterly determined to force on everyone - you tell everyone that they follow your belief system, with utter disregard for what their position actually is, no matter how many times they tell you.

You can tell me what I am allowed to think as much as you like, but you can't actually control my mind so you're just pissing in the wind.

Lack of belief exists. You can deny it all you like, but you can't stop it existing.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Thursday, May 02, 2013 8:40:34 AM
5C: What do you think of gangleplax?
A: It's a word you just made up.
5C: It's a word I made up.
A: Oh, then I believe you just made it up.




5C: What do you think of gangleplax?
A: It's a type of flower.
5C: It's a word I made up.
A: I believe it is a real word.



By line 4 the 'A' person cannot LITERALLY have NO belief about "gangleplax"...

5C: What do you think of gangleplax?
A: I have no idea, what is it?
5C: It's a word I made up.
A: I have no way of knowing if that is true or not.



At that point in time? This can be true. Another correct answer is: I'll await further research before forming a belief.
BUT! That still falls into the "I don't know" category. (it's implicit)

See?

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Thursday, May 02, 2013 8:33:19 AM
Line 2 and line 4 are both references to A's beliefs about "gangleplax".

Line 2: Here the answer "I have no beliefs about it" is correct!! Because he literally has NO beliefs about it!

Line 4: Here the correct answer is one of the 4 given. The answer of "I have no belief" is no longer valid! It is INACCURATE! Because at this point, having some information to process, 'A' does have some sort of belief (idea, theory, knowledge, understanding, opinion & etc) about "gangleplax".

"I don't know" = correct!
"I have no belief" = I don't know, which is one of the 4 "belief sets". It is inaccurate to claim a complete LACK of any FORM of belief...

(For line 4, NOT line 2!)

Am I being "overly picky"? Probably. But that's how I see it.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11341 Posts
Thursday, May 02, 2013 4:35:34 AM
Sorry to argue so much, really! It just seems so obvious to me.


Obvious, but wrong. You are, for some reason, absolutely certain that belief is essential in all things, that it's impossible for anyone to not believe. That makes it obvious to you that everyone must always believe - you're reinforcing your own doctrine.

5C: What do you think of gangleplax?
A: I have no idea, what is it?
5C: It's a word I made up.
A: Oh, then I have no beliefs about it.

But you DO! (In the second reply, NOT the first) Either you believe: I made it up, you believe it's real, you don't know, or you think it's impossible to tell.



The last two aren't beliefs. The first two might be beliefs or they might be casually phrased assessments of probability or they might be a result of knowledge from other sources.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11341 Posts
Thursday, May 02, 2013 4:26:26 AM
Everyone HAS information on the subject of God(s), ok? There is not one functional adult alive who hasn't heard of, studied or thought about the existence OR NOT of God(s) OK?

To claim "lack of information" is ONE WAY TO EXPRESS YOUR SET OF BELIEFS in that subject.



You can shout as much as you like, but you can't force everyone else to acquire your inability to understand a lack of belief.

I have varying degrees of information about the hundreds of gods that we know people have believed in in various times and places.

I have no *proof* regarding whether any of them are real or fictional characters.

I do not have to take a faith-based position and declare that I know the truth regardless of the lack of proof - I do not have to believe.

You cannot force me to do so, no matter how many times you repeat yourself or shout.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11341 Posts
Thursday, May 02, 2013 4:20:04 AM
@Angilion: "I believe I lack the information to form a belief".


I'll repeat what I said before, because it's still true and your radical change to what I actually wrote is a perfect example:

you are for some reason unable to understand the concept of a lack of belief.

You are redefining words, concepts and every possible position to force them to conform to your lack of understanding.


You've proven my point again, in an even more strained and contorted way this time. In order to change what I said in order to try to force it to conform to your inability to comprehend the concept of a lack of belief, not only have you had to make up a completely different position and claim it's the same one, but the fake you've made contradicts itself.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 6:52:05 PM
Woo hoo! Not cut off!
The char counter forces brevity, which often (but not always) aids clarity.

Do you believe me?

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 6:50:49 PM
The ONLY way a "lack of information" can be used to form a NON belief is if you've never heard of the thing before.

In THAT case you literally have NO belief, idea, knowledge, understanding & etc.

For every other thing? You have "a belief" even if that belief is: I don't know (or some variation of that).

Belief is not omnipresent? Very good! Neither is it omniscient. BUT it is sentient: if you have a thought? You have a belief. If you've LITERALLY never thought about it? THEN it is possible to be non-sentient (not know).

Sorry to argue so much, really! It just seems so obvious to me.

5C: What do you think of gangleplax?
A: I have no idea, what is it?
5C: It's a word I made up.
A: Oh, then I have no beliefs about it.

But you DO! (In the second reply, NOT the first) Either you believe: I made it up, you believe it's real, you don't know, or you think it's impossible to tell.
912

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 6:42:12 PM
So now you're taking single words out of a thesaurus and claiming it's better than the context of a dictionary?

Noooo. @patchy I'm saying that one of the Dictionary Words SUPPORTS my side! You said it has "nothing" to do with "belief" but in fact the two words are... synonyms!

doubting a claim IS NOT the same as accepting the opposite of the claim.

When have I ever said that? I keep repeating that the two are different! 4 answers: Yes, No, I don't know & it's impossible to know.

@Angilion: "I believe I lack the information to form a belief".

Everyone HAS information on the subject of God(s), ok? There is not one functional adult alive who hasn't heard of, studied or thought about the existence OR NOT of God(s) OK?

To claim "lack of information" is ONE WAY TO EXPRESS YOUR SET OF BELIEFS in that subject.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11341 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 6:05:03 PM
You've read the definitions I gave. You even agreed with them. So use them:

Gnostic atheism is a belief position - a gnostic atheist believes that there are no gods. Belief is required because they claim knowledge and do not have proof, although they might not see it as belief (because they think it is knowledge).

Gnostic theism is a belief position, for the same reason. A gnostic theist believes that there are gods, or a god.

Agnostic theism is a belief position, and a very honest one. An agnostic theist is completely upfront about it being a belief position - they don't claim knowledge, so they see their belief in god(s) as a belief.

Agnostic atheism is not a form of belief - an agnostic atheist does not claim knowledge despite lack of proof, nor do they acknowledge their lack of knowledge but believe anyway. There is no belief in this position.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11341 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 5:50:33 PM
But it doesn't change the reality: Atheism is A FORM of belief.


You are wrong. It's as simple as that.

It may seem like reality to you, but that's because you are for some reason unable to understand the concept of a lack of belief. I've no idea why, because it's not a complex concept, but the idea is somehow incomprehensible to you.

You are redefining words, concepts and every possible position to force them to conform to your lack of understanding. That's not reality. It only seems like reality to you because you can't fit a lack of belief into your perception of reality.

I assure you that there is such a thing as a lack of belief. It does exist. It's actually quite common. I have no idea why you're unable to understand even the possibility of its existence.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11341 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 5:40:32 PM
I know that I don't know.

To me? That's different than the other three, BUT it still counts as "a belief about life on Tau Ceti".



Why? There's no belief in it at all. As I said before:

I don't know. That is not a belief. I don't believe I don't know. I know that I don't know. No faith required.


"I know that I don't know" isn't a statement about belief. It's a statement about knowledge.

"There are people there" and "there aren't people there" are statements of belief because there isn't compelling evidence either way.

"What little evidence we have implies that intelligent life is probably very rare, so it's unlikely that two species of intelligent life would evolve so close to each other at the same time" is a third option - neither belief nor knowledge, but rational speculation and an assessment of probability.

Belief is not omnipresent.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5708 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 1:18:26 PM
So now you're taking single words out of a thesaurus and claiming it's better than the context of a dictionary? ha, ok.

Atheism is A FORM of belief.


No. How is doubt a form of belief? I haven't made a judgement or "accepted" anything either way. If a doubt is a belief then a thought is an action.

"I believe I don't know" is a non sequitor. It's like you skipped my whole comment about how doubting a claim IS NOT the same as accepting the opposite of the claim.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 12:53:22 PM
*Hits @patchy with a Thesaurus*

Accept means to agree. Agreement implies belief.

Belief What's the first word? Acceptance...

Unbelief What's the first word? Atheism...

I know WHAT you are saying, I just disagree...

Yes it's the fault of the English Language and people's use of terms in a "slang" fashion. But it doesn't change the reality: Atheism is A FORM of belief.

Loosey-Goosey

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5708 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 9:43:13 AM
But you DO believe something else! You even said so!

Yes, *I* believe something else, that doesn't mean that ALL atheists believe something else. You're just painting them all with the same brush and claiming it's true. While atheists *can* believe things, IT IS NOT REQUIRED.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5708 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 9:38:15 AM
Doubt, on the other hand:

1) A status between belief and disbelief, involves uncertainty or distrust or lack of sureness of an alleged fact, an action, a motive, or a decision.

This again says nothing of believing any viewpoint, rather, all I'm doing is not accepting yours. Strawman all you want but belief is NOT a requirement for atheism.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5708 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 9:37:00 AM
@5cats: You're loading the question. I wasn't being asked what I believe, rather, someone is asserting that, say, God exists. I don't have to believe *anything* as I already pointed out.

Disbelief, unbelief, nonbelief, belief. All are FORMS OF "I Think"... "I Understand"... "I've Concluded That"...

No. You're correct that they are the same thing basically, but you're wrong in that they don't make any assumptions or beliefs. Let's look at some definitions:
Disbelief: 1. Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.
2. Lack of faith in something.

That doesn't say anything about believing or having an affirmative about anything.

Unbelief: Lack of religious belief; an absence of faith.

Nothing there about believing anything either.

Nonbelief: refusal to accept something as true <my nonbelief in UFO's should not be construed as an unshakable belief in their nonexistence

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 8:51:17 AM
"If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice!"
- Rush "Freewill"

Did you make a choice by not deciding? Yes.
Did you decide on it? No.

Same action, different answers because the question is different.

Do you have a belief: yes
What IS that belief: I believe I don't know

It's still "a belief" even if you don't know what it is...

Thus: All 4 forms of the Theist/Atheist and Gnostic/Agnostic combination are: Forms Of Belief

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 8:45:51 AM
But that doesn't mean I believe something else...


@patchy: But you DO believe something else! You even said so!

You THINK the answer is yes, or no, or I don't know, or we can never know. These, to me, are 4 separate answers although 3 of them are very similar. Those three get "lumped together" by the English Language eh? Depending on the question asked.

Disbelief, unbelief, nonbelief, belief. All are FORMS OF "I Think"... "I Understand"... "I've Concluded That"...

Babies don't "think" yet, they just react and learn...

Back to @Angilion's example:
Are you SURE there's life at Tau Ceti?
GT: Yes
GA: No
AT: No
AA: No

See? Same answers, different reasons.

Do you think there MIGHT BE life at Tau Ceti?
GT: Yes
GA: No
AT: Yes
AA: Yes

Same reasons, different answers...

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5708 Posts
Wednesday, May 01, 2013 7:12:25 AM
Logically speaking, mere disbelief in the truth of a proposition cannot be treated as equivalent to the belief that the proposition is false and that the opposite is true. If you make a claim and I disbelieve it, I am not necessarily saying that your claim is false. I may not understand it well enough to say one way or the other. Or I may lack enough information to test your claim. Or I may simply not care enough to think about it. But that doesn't mean I believe something else or that I "believe" that you are wrong.

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