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Wake UP America....

Hits: 5869 | Rating: (3.2) | Category: Community & Lifestyle | Added by: ElectricEye
Page: 1 24 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10232 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:46:23 PM
The argument that the poor are paying for the rich doesn't hold up.


Not to disagree with you in principle, but in ways they are. Low wage workers pay taxes that fund HHS programs. The department itself is the biggest driver of government debt.

Society hummed along pretty well.


Yes and there were Jim Crowe laws, separate but equal, world wars, lack of women's suffrage. Wait a minute I thought the gilded age was among the worst times in American history.

Zira

Since WHEN have wages started stagnating? In the past 40 years 19 out of 20 of those who made money in the bottom bracket have moved up. Those who started in poor households made double and those in rich made about the same. I don't understand where you're getting this "factoid".

FoolsPrussia
Male, 30-39, Western US
 3398 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:44:50 PM
"Supposed 'Wealth Equality' is called communism. That's been tried and failed."

Hyperbole. Income distribution in America was much closer to being equal during the years the USA was most concerned with fighting communism.


Annual U.S. income share of the top 1%

uatme
Male, 18-29, Canada
 1013 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:34:04 PM
lol "not the janitor"

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4445 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:17:50 PM
fancythat-"That's 76%!"

Not to mention, 7 out of every 6 people are bad at fractions.

fancythat
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 1938 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:06:03 PM
That's a lot of stats you're throwing around. And we all know that 76% of all stats are made up on the spot. That's 76%!

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:03:51 PM
@Chalket Seriously answer this one simple question and I will admit I'm wrong. It's the only point I'm making, nothing else which you're implying I'm saying.

If people/companies are freely allowed to save/invest their money and pass onto the next generation. And others are allowed to spend their money. How do you stop the gap between the former saving over many years and the latter not?

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:57:08 PM
@chalket Apple is given as an example of a company which said stuff Shareholders and shareholder maximization. It became the richest company in the planet. At one point having more money on hand then the US federal government. The things suggested will not stop people being able to amass wealth. It will perhaps make companies more competitive and remove market distortions by regulation and outside influence. But better run companies over generations they will still have amassed more wealth unless you cap how much someone can save/earn.

Another great example of how to run a business is John Lewis in the UK where all the workers own the company in a worker cooperative. Should have more of them.

But it doesn't stop people amassing large sums of wealth, as the basic problem is the capitalist system allows inequality. And you cannot without confiscating after imposing a limit stop that wealth amassing.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16941 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:50:39 PM
Supposed 'Wealth Equality' is called communism. That's been tried and failed.

chalket
Male, 50-59, Southern US
 2481 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:33:46 PM
@Bakcagain21
This good article from Forbes magazine addresses some of how you're wrong.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:33:31 PM
We have become so obsessed with how to rectify the current situation, that nobody is asking how we got here.

In my opinion, the main culprits were government interference in the housing market and the artificial manipulation of market interest rates during the early 2000's. The collapse caused the recession, and with any recession, the wealthy tend to be better shielded from the effects of a down economy.

Next, I also tend to blame the government for overtaking the responsibility of an individual’s economic welfare. Decades ago, individuals and businesses were much more responsible for ensuring living wages since the government did not subsidize incomes as much as today. Today, businesses have been enabled to offer extremely low wages because the government will provide the subsidy.

Quite literally, tax redistribution plans help to further the wealth disparity.

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:27:07 PM
@chalket because wealth increases over generations as the world and globalization have gotten bigger. CEO's 30 years ago weren't running companies that were as big or operated in as many countries as they do now, they didn't have as many customers. They hadn't created their own supply chains to keep the cost downs and profit theirs)

And true some companies like those operated by Quakers (Cadbury and Bournville is a great example) head awesome coperate conscience, & some still exist in some modern companies just are the exceptions as they were back then.

Unless you eliminate any chance or inequality(capping savings, wages) , it will grow because you cannot stop a company or person from amassing wealth, then passing it onto their children/new board of directors for generations increasing the wealth. People are voluntarily giving money to them.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4445 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:24:06 PM
chalket-"You act as if this is the way it's always been and always must be."

Never said that. Never inferred that. (Do you realize that you demonstrate a propensity to argue through a bias of what you intentionally misinterpret rather than what is actually written?)

The only constant in the universe is change. The opposite of change is not entropy, but change in the opposite direction.

chalket-"There was a time when an owner/ceo of a company felt a social and moral obligation to his employees and to society at large."

And there was a time when the owner/ceo of a company used slave and/or child labor. Your point?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:23:15 PM
@chalket

What makes todays ceo's so much more valuable and important than they were 30 years ago? Why are they making 10-30x more now? Why are their workers making less than they used to?


These are good questions and I share your sentiment that the current disparity is disconcerting; however, I think you are misled in your implications that greed is the cause. Is it likely that greed has grown so quickly in the past 30 years to be a reasonable explanation of this situation? I doubt it. Greed is a constant and, as such, should not be looked at as an explanation of an exceptional circumstance.

Rather, I imagine it is the fault of government interference in the market (I can elaborate if you'd like). Ask yourself this, was there more or less government oversight of the economy 30 years ago compared to today? I believe you will come to the same conclusion as I have.

chalket
Male, 50-59, Southern US
 2481 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:06:36 PM
Stop fixating on the "ideal" and look at the reality! The "ideal" just illustrates how far reality really is from perception. The reality is unsustainable and harmful to life and liberty. How can you defend it?

You act as if this is the way it's always been and always must be. Pure b.s. There was a time when an owner/ceo of a company felt a social and moral obligation to his employees and to society at large. A company was judged by longevity and long-term strategies, not immediate maximized profit. We had a strong and growing middle class, along with plenty of very wealthy people. Society hummed along pretty well. What makes todays ceo's so much more valuable and important than they were 30 years ago? Why are they making 10-30x more now? Why are their workers making less than they used to?

They've been duping us for decades. Some of us are beginning to wake up, while others are a bit slower. Open your minds.

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:04:51 PM
And just to everyone who want's to reallocate money by forcibly taxing savings or declaring how much people should earn in wages. I repeat this sentiment, if you and others can dictate what someone else is allowed to save/earn. What is stopping the same being said of you. Why you should always be wary of politicians who promise to spend other peoples money, they'll have no problem spending yours on others aswell.

Look at Gordon Brown and the 10p tax rate debacle or raiding of the pensions or any number of policies to placate the middle classes.

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 2:01:21 PM
@piperfawn it's the same in the UK as Mcgrendle just said , the tax burden is shared mainly by the rich. Hell they're raising the income tax threshold to 10K (which I'm in favour of)

But the poor do not pay for the rich. When you consider the public services and who uses them compared with the rich who go for private education and private healthcare. The argument that the poor are paying for the rich doesn't hold up.

And I agree with you tax evasion is a terrible thing but you cannot rely solely on the rich as they will move to another country which doesn't tax them as much. Look at what's happening in France. The best thing would be to heavily simplify the tax codes and rates to what is deemed "fair" by the government to eliminate these loopholes. The Hong Kong Tax code is 4 pages long and they have 95% compliance.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4445 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:43:21 PM
piperfawn-"so the poor people have to pay for thems"

The IRS would dissagree with you.

Would you put 'the poor' in the top 50% or the bottom 50%? As it seems that the top 50% pay 97.75% of the taxes...while the bottom 50% (of which 'the poor' are only a small minority) pay 2.25%

piperfawn
Male, 30-39, Europe
 3883 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:30:34 PM
Bakcagain21 one part of the solution is to go and see where this 1% keep the money and how much they pay in taxes. Usually you discover they keep money in tax heavens states not payng a single penny of taxes ( so the poor people have to pay for thems). Solution? If you get someone that hide his money and elude taxes just arrest him, confiscate all his money and properties and deny him the possibility to have any pubblic charge (i.e they can't be politician in any government,they can't be also majors of a screwed town in middle of nowhere). This is just a part of the possible solution but could be a good start.

patchouly
Male, 40-49, Canada
 4556 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:29:59 PM
Ah, America. Land of the overworked and under paid. Keep watching Fox news and gobbling up the propaganda. Your brainwashing cycle is almost complete!

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:06:51 PM
@chalket Once you agree to the prospect someone can work more hours for more money. Or have more money in their bank account by saving etc. You accept inequality in society and without state confiscation of property you cannot control to what extent that inequality will reach. As the saved money will be invested to get returns put to use to make more money and over generations and generations it builds up as this video has shown.

Bakcagain21
Male, 18-29, Europe
 553 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:00:58 PM
@chalket I repeat how are you going to change this without state confiscation. The problem is if everyone changed their buying habit's now and bought from different people etc performing a big cultural shift you will just create a different top layer amassing the wealth once they start to consolidate different enterprises.

And yes smoking is a wonderful example of how the state has dictated it. Taking tax money to run 30 years worth of campaigning against it, taxing the hell out of it, and creating situations like smoking bans to physically separate them as pariahs. Yet people still smoke as is their choice to damage their health. Once again it's the state that has decided what is good for you and ran a 30 year campaign to change it.

Take wages do a 30 year campaign, of regulation and high taxation to bring down NFL wages as they don't deserve their salaries. That's what it will take and that's too much power for the state.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4445 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 12:53:30 PM
chalket-"you just think this inequality is fine and dandy, right?"

Not at all. I just realize the reality of how wealth is created and earned and why it is so.

This idiot didn't present any FACTS of what 'ideal' is. He presented what peoples' OPINION of what SHOULD be 'ideal'.

I'm sure most people 'think' the 'ideal' price for gas is lower...that opinion in no way effects the reality.

chalket-"And you have the nerve to call 92% of Americans "the dumb people!"

Where did you get that I called 92% of Americans anything? (why is it idiots always throw up a strawman rather than arguing what was actually writtin?)

What I said is that if this 'distribution' is news to you, you're ignorant of easily accessible facts and also ignorant of the reality of the situation. I call these people 'idiots'.

In other words, if the current wealth distribution is 'news' to you, you're an idiot.

Ozmose
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 441 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 12:45:58 PM
Sad.
Just think, we could fix the whole problem with a few dollars worth of bullets.

QueenZira
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
 2181 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 12:44:02 PM
This isn't sustainable. This is going to hurt the next generation who are already on track to earn less in our lifetimes than our parents did no matter how much or how long we work due to wage stagnation. We can't buy homes, we can't pay for our education, and we can't start families like this.

That old Reaganite delusion that enriching the wealthy makes *everybody* wealthy... It really works like letting the rich guy have his coffee, which he then proceeds to vomit in your mouth...

I repeat, this is not sustainable. It won't go on forever. There won't be violence or anything, but there is gonna be change as the world slowly rights itself.

chalket
Male, 50-59, Southern US
 2481 Posts
Thursday, March 28, 2013 12:37:29 PM
@MeGrendel
Come on, you're smarter than that. You always come on here defending the status quo, when that status quo is literally getting more and more skewed toward the top every day!

You have the gall to "correct" me when you apparently have no clue nor any curiosity about the REALITY this video so clearly illustrates. I notice you didn't dispute the facts, you just think this inequality is fine and dandy, right? Yeah, right.

You claim "he's frightened [me] into thinking" things? Let me assure you, a) I'm not frightened, I'm PISSED OFF, and b) "he" didn't cause it; my own research (and the indisputable FACTS) is why I'm angry, it has nothing to do with this video. It's just an excellent illustration of a major problem a lot of open minds have seen building for many years. Sorry your blinders get in your way. And you have the nerve to call 92% of Americans "the dumb people!" We should ALL be outraged by YOUR ignorance, du

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