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The Last Letter: A Message To GWB & Cheney [Pi

Hits: 6115 | Rating: (2.9) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: chalket
Page: 1 2 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5000 Posts
Friday, March 22, 2013 9:13:10 AM
CrakrJak

"if he had been sent to Afghanistan"

Yes. The war that was in response to the attack on our country by a group of people in Afghanistan. DEFENSE.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10230 Posts
Friday, March 22, 2013 5:23:36 AM
Bud I sympathize, Iraq war was a BAD idea destined for failure. Nonetheless, learn to read beyond the spin and euphemisms ESPECIALLY when you're signing a contract with Uncle Sam. In this case you signed up to fight anyone congress (or the President) deems an "enemy".

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16940 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:02:12 PM
HG: "He...signed up to DEFEND his country."

You obviously didn't read the whole letter, he says that he wouldn't be whining (total bullsh|t) if he had been sent to Afghanistan.

Besides that the oath of enlistment he took says, "I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Please take particular note of that "..all enemies, foreign and domestic.." part. It doesn't say "some enemies" or "only the enemies I want to fight against".

So once again, Yes, he did indeed sign up for that.

Scuzoid
Male, 30-39, Western US
 1270 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:31:35 PM
The moment the planes hit the twin towers I KNEW we were going to war with Iraq. Absolutely knew it. I finally made it to boot camp by November.

markust123
Male, 40-49, Western US
 3784 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:55:10 PM
"Because he didn't order the death of an American citizen without his right to due process?"

You mean Anwar al-Aulaqi the American traitor who was living in Yemini and recruiting for al-Qaeda? The guy the Saudi news station Al Arabiya described as the "bin Laden of the Internet? Yes, it was unprecedented for President Obama to put him on the CIA terrorist kill list but seeing who he actually was and what he was doing I don't blame him one bit. Who knows how many lives Obama saved by ordering the killing of this al-Qaeda recruiter. Conservatives would have been fine if Bush had ordered the strike but since it was Obama they have turned into pussy liberals with this issue. Ha ha.

FoolsPrussia
Male, 30-39, Western US
 3398 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:07:50 PM
"Nope, they had people there, they had people all over the Middle East, Europe, the Mediterranean just biding their time. We went to Afghanistan first and got rid of training camps, then when the decision was made to go to Iraq the action there slowed down they waited to hear from their guys who were already in country as to whether or not coalition forces were going there."

When I say presence, I mean an actual fighting presence. They may have had a few agents, but Saddam was no friend of Al Qaeda.

"When they got good enough info they literally just followed us over there."

Again, that just underscores my point. The only reason there was a foreign insurgency in Iraq was because we were there.

scapegoat7
Male, 18-29, Western US
 201 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:57:21 PM
Dick Cheney's company, KBR, got a military contract to coat pipes with a powerfully carcinogenic substance to protect them. Their negligence fatally poisoned U.S. soldiers in the process. Guess who is expected to foot the bill?

Cheney's a POS

whodat6484
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3641 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:36:45 PM
@paperduck - There's a big difference between being "not fond of" someone and being scared to death or someone to the point where you do whatever they say because you fear for your life as well as the lives of your family. That's how the Iraqis lived while Saddam was in power. Those were the people who were coming out and saying thank you, not shooting at us.

"Al Qaeda didn't have a presence in Iraq until after Saddam was toppled."

Nope, they had people there, they had people all over the Middle East, Europe, the Mediterranean just biding their time. We went to Afghanistan first and got rid of training camps, then when the decision was made to go to Iraq the action there slowed down they waited to hear from their guys who were already in country as to whether or not coalition forces were going there. When they got good enough info they literally just followed us over there.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5000 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 3:31:24 PM
MelCervini

"death of an American citizen"

1. Please explain to me how an American life is so much more valuable than any other life.

2. Well Bush ordered the Iraq invasion which caused thousands of American deaths. Is that OK?

MelCervini
Female, 40-49, Eastern US
 1165 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 3:13:44 PM
"First the drone program was started under President Bush and there was zero problem with it from the Republicans - zero. If the program was worthy of war crimes why did the Republicans not put an immediate end to it when it was initiated under Bush?"

Because he didn't order the death of an American citizen without his right to due process?

FoolsPrussia
Male, 30-39, Western US
 3398 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 3:09:59 PM
'The majority of the "insurgents" we came across weren't even Iraqi, the actual Iraqis basically said, "What? Saddam's gone? F*ck yeah, it's party time!"'

Doesn't this just highlight the other major folly of the Iraq war, that it opened the door for a foreign insurgency? Al Qaeda didn't have a presence in Iraq until after Saddam was toppled.

SmagBoy1
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4221 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:58:20 PM
Afghanistan made sense to me. Well, for the few days we thought OBL was there. Then, we should have left there and gone to Pakistan. Why we *ever* went to Iraq, I have no clue. And here's something: even if they *did* have WMDs, why would that have mattered? Were they going to float them over to us rafts? Tie them to birds and fly them over? We went to Iraq for exactly the reasons this letter says, and nothing else. And it's a crying damned shame. Oh well.

paperduck
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 1704 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:15:55 PM
Whodat I'm not too fond of Obama, but if a foreign country invades to remove him I'm shooting at them. You can sugar coat the Iraq invasion all you want (saying they weren't even Iraqi) but as much as I didn't want a single military person to be killed or injured, I can understand them taking up arms. I would do the same thing here if anyone invaded. That is actual defending of my family and community, it becomes personal.

markust123
Male, 40-49, Western US
 3784 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:11:19 PM
Fifteen of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Why was Saudi Arabia not held accountable? Why did Bush give them a pass?

markust123
Male, 40-49, Western US
 3784 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:06:45 PM
"What Obama has done with his drone program is far more illegal than any wars under Bush, wars that Hillary, Biden, Reid, Feinstein, Dodd, and more authorized. And as I listed before, if you apply the same standard to all the presidents, they should all be tried. It's flawed thinking."

First the drone program was started under President Bush and there was zero problem with it from the Republicans - zero. If the program was worthy of war crimes why did the Republicans not put an immediate end to it when it was initiated under Bush?

Iraq was a preemptive war against a country that was not an immediate threat to the US (Iran and North Korea were real threats). The Bush administration and the Republicans talked the country into the preemptive strike using lies and scare tactics. Someone should be held accountable.

whodat6484
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3641 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 1:57:41 PM
"We invade a country leading to tens of thousands of innocent deaths and anyone who fights back is labeled "an insurgent".

I guarantee no one will ever know the real reason we went into Iraq but regardless of that, Saddam needed to go. They wanted him gone because, as one Iraqi terp told me, "We're tired of his sh*t and living in fear of speaking or even thinking anything that could be considered anti-Saddam." The majority of the Saddam controlled Iraqi soldiers literally stripped off their uniforms and left them along with their equipment in the positions they were dug into when they knew we were coming and when they heard he was gone. They only wore the uniform and did what he said out of fear that they & their families would "disappear" if they didn't. The majority of the "insurgents" we came across weren't even Iraqi, the actual Iraqis basically said, "What? Saddam's gone? F*ck yeah, it's party time!"

TheGuySmiley
Male, 18-29, Canada
 1222 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 1:55:57 PM
Yet another reason why people around the world are chanting "DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!!..."

Join in the chant! Take it to the little white house on the hill. Stay. Chant. Grow in numbers. Chant. It's your right. It's your duty.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5000 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 12:39:32 PM
paperduck

"(kind of like "insurgents" in the countries we invaded)"

Hilarious right? We invade a country leading to tens of thousands of innocent deaths and anyone who fights back is labeled "an insurgent".

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5000 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:47:16 AM
whodat6484

"Absolutely, you can ask any Veteran and they'll tell you the same thing."

Then wouldn't you agree that whether or not the letter of the contract gives them carte blanche to use you as they see fit it violates the spirit of the agreement in which you agree to lay down your life in defense of this country?

In that regard can you not sympathize with him in his anger at giving his life for what he feels was a violation of that commitment?

paperduck
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 1704 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:45:11 AM
I'll "serve" if there is an invasion. By serve, I mean grab my guns, go outside and shoot invaders (kind of like "insurgents" in the countries we invaded). I wouldn't join the military to be sent off half way around the world, because then I'm doing the invading.

whodat6484
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3641 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:14:23 AM
"...didn't you feel that the people that commanded you owed it to you to only risk your life on matters that were worth that sacrifice?"

Absolutely, you can ask any Veteran and they'll tell you the same thing. I still remember the day we heard we'd be going to Iraq at our morning formation. Everyone from the newest boot right out of SOI to our CO were in agreement that going into Iraq was stupid. Our CO told us he knew it was bullsh*t just like the rest of us but we all signed on the dotted line so we're going whether we like it or not. Then, in typical Marine Corps fashion he said, "We're Marines, we're here to do a job and we're going to do it. I'll level with you, it's going to suck, I guarantee that, but we're going either way. Besides that, I have nothing else better to do and I could use a vacation to get away from my wife for a few months."

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 5000 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 10:49:16 AM
whodat6484

"If you'd like to know why the "I didn't sign up for this sh*t" argument doesn't work I have some reading material to share with you."

You served. I didn't. So in that regard I defer to you completely.

However, when you signed the contract and agreed to put your life on the line didn't you feel that the people that commanded you owed it to you to only risk your life on matters that were worth that sacrifice?

peakingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 687 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 10:45:45 AM
For what it's worth, that's on him. He joined.

I never wanted to join any branch, not out of lack of patriotism, but out of the realization that the people who are making these conflicts happen never serve, their kids generally never serve and that gives them the egotistical ability of putting lives in risk for meaningless purposes.

Personally, if you join the military you join with the expectation that you will die. Questioning the validity of the conflict after the fact is an exercise in futility.

whodat6484
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3641 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 10:36:40 AM
If you'd like to know why the "I didn't sign up for this sh*t" argument doesn't work I have some reading material to share with you. This is the actual enlistment contract that is signed when you swear in.

Enlistment/Reenlistment Document
Armed Forces of the United States
DD FORM 4/3

whodat6484
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3641 Posts
Thursday, March 21, 2013 10:18:37 AM
He lost me at "I did not join the Army to go to Iraq..."

Once those words are spoken/typed, you no longer have my attention. Last time I checked there never was a draft like Vietnam, all those who served did so voluntarily for whatever their reason may have been. You know damn well when signing that contract and taking the Oath of Enlistment that for the next 4 years (or however may years you enlist) you'll go wherever they tell you to go, whenever they tell you to go.

As for substandard care at the VA, it's no secret that's a problem but it depends on where you live. I use the VA and have had nothing short of top notch care from the Bronx VA Hospital and the Montrose, NY VA Hospital which has the best PTSD/Mental Health programs in the country.


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