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Brian Cox Makes A Cloud Chamber... SCIENCE!

Hits: 6074 | Rating: (3.2) | Category: Science | Added by: blackcatseye
Page: 1 2 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
An-egg
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 866 Posts
Friday, March 08, 2013 8:03:45 AM
When we see anything, the image that we see is the light that was previously created by or more usually reflected or scattered from the thing that we see. We do not see what is there now, we see the thing as it was when the light was emitted. Seeing things is a primary source of gaining knowledge, there is nothing implied or inferred or indirect about it. Light from stars is one kind of cosmic ray. When you look at a star you see it as it was when the light was emitted. You directly look back in time every time you look at anything.

There is no inference, you do not see the light as it is now, you see the star as it was then.

I hope I'm making this easy enough for you to follow so you don't have to resort to shouting about how other people blindly refuse to accept your theories without direct evidence. Seeing a thing is about as direct as it gets.


Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Friday, March 08, 2013 7:42:43 AM
@An-egg

*pinches nose*

CrakrJak claimed that cosmic rays have been around since forever.

We have direct observable evidence that they are here, now. And they are moving in directions and speeds that indicate that they originated from distant points in the distant past.

However, our knowledge of their past comes from our observation of their present state, NOT their past state: we can't view that for obvious reasons. By this I mean that it is "indirect" evidence.

The reason I pointed all that out is because CrakrJak pooh-poohs exactly that kind of evidence when it comes to evolution, yet accepts that kind of evidence (as do the rest of us) when it comes to other things.

Get it through your head: I AM NOT SAYING THAT COSMIC RAYS DO NOT EXIST.

You clearly haven't been in these kinds of discussions on IAB long, because if you were you'd be well aware of my stance on things.

An-egg
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 866 Posts
Friday, March 08, 2013 7:18:58 AM
Also, when I made the first comment I was going to add that physics, contrary to popular belief is not set in stone. Any physics lecturer worth his salt will readily admit that everything he is teaching you is probably wrong. Physicists are trained to look for mistakes, inconsistencies and failures in physics so that it can be improved.

Sticking dogmatically to a theory and refuting any argument with "You're a crazy" sounds more like something a church would do than science.


An-egg
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 866 Posts
Friday, March 08, 2013 7:00:37 AM
I think most people would regard looking at something as pretty direct evidence. The speed of light can be directly measured. I don't buy your "indirect" argument.

Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
 33910 Posts
Friday, March 08, 2013 6:11:51 AM

I didn't see any damn cloud.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Friday, March 08, 2013 4:48:55 AM
@An-egg

Note that I'm not denying the existence of ancient cosmic rays: I'm questioning CrakrJak's differing requirements for proof when it comes to scientific concepts for which he has a personal bias and grudge.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Friday, March 08, 2013 4:47:39 AM
@An-egg

"Whenever you look at a star you are looking at it as it was a very long time ago."

No you're not. You're detecting photons today that appear to be coming from a distant source long ago. Sensibly, we can interpret that as evidence that a star emitted that photon long ago. It is "indirect" evidence.

The kind of "indirect" evidence that CrakrJak accepts for ancient cosmic rays, but then rejects when it comes to evolution; for evolution alone he demands "direct" evidence, and the "indirect" evidence just will not do.

That was the point I was making: he seems perfectly happy to accept indirect evidence for ancient cosmic rays, but not happy to accept indirect evidence for evolution. Why?

An-egg
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 866 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 1:16:15 PM
@Musuko42.
Yes, we do have a time machine that allows us to look back in time. The radiation that reaches us from the farthest stars is literally coming from the beginning of time and has taken since then to get here. Whenever you look at a star you are looking at it as it was a very long time ago. The nearest star to earth (apart from the Sun) is Proxima Centuari which is 4.2 light years away so when you look at it you see it as it was 4.2 years ago. Other stars are millions of light years away and so you see them as they were millions of years ago. With modern microwave detectors you can see back to a few hundred years after the big bang, quite literally the beginning of time.

fancythat
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 1942 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 11:43:33 AM
You have to admit, the only reason that box is there is because God put it there.


Let the trolling begin!

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5717 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 11:24:36 AM
@musuko: After re-reading his comment I suppose I had interpreted it incorrectly. He seems to have been describing a particular scenario, I was reading it as him describing all carcinogens.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 10:18:27 AM
@CrakrJak

"Cosmic rays have been around forever"

Has proof of that been directly observed in nature? Have we sent a time machine back in time to check that they existed a billion years ago?

How come you demand that level of proof with evolution, but not with other scientific concepts such as cosmic rays?

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 10:00:04 AM
@patchgrabber

He didn't say all carcinogens. He said carcinogens.

In the same way as if I say "men are in my house" I'm not meaning all men.

Admit that you're wrong.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5717 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 9:30:14 AM
What I stated (carcinogens emit gamma rays and alpha particles) is a true statement.

But not all carcinogens are radioactive, so they cannot all produce radiation, only the ones that are radioactive. Anything radioactive is a carcinogen but not all are radioactive, kind of like how all thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs.

lovinitmtboy
Male, 18-29, Western US
 16 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 9:13:25 AM
Patchgrabber, I am sure you are much more familiar with cancer and biology than I. However, I was not "mostly wrong" and you misquote me saying "all carcinogens are radioactive." What I stated (carcinogens emit gamma rays and alpha particles) is a true statement. I was attempting to bridge this concept with cosmic rays relation to genetic mutation. I was not attempting to summarize all cancerous mutations under one process.

Dover78
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 224 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 9:01:42 AM
Cancer is like a BSOD for your DNA.

carmium
Female, 50-59, Canada
 6406 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:24:08 AM
Sorry, Crakr; you can't come off like a Bible literalist or whatever it is you are around here. Far more educated people than you or I are going to dump all over you and explain how things really are, whether you like it or not. One of my favorite things about IAB and its regulars, actually.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5717 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:18:21 AM
Lets review for a moment how cancer is caused. Carcinogens emit gamma rays and alpha particles (also in cosmic radiation) that hit the DNA structure and cause the mutation that destroys the natural cell death process (mitosis).

Really? I can't let this one go, because it's mostly wrong. Carcinogens are all radioactive now? And the programmed cell death process is called apoptosis; mitosis is essentially asexual reproduction. Cancer doesn't just have one cause, there are MANY different causes of cancer, such as mutations, deletions, and amplifications of certain genes. I could go into a more in-depth description involving oncogenes and tumor suppressors, but for now suffice to say that carcinogens aren't all radioactive, it's just malfunctioning DNA for the most part.

Mikeoxsbiggg
Male, 30-39, Canada
 1229 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:12:20 AM
The evidence for evolution is astronomical.

Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
 3672 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 8:04:33 AM
The wonders of alcohol.. too.

Kain1
Male, 18-29, Europe
 1463 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 7:58:55 AM
@CrakrJak: Mutations explained.

Canoas
Male, 18-29, Europe
 429 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 7:48:01 AM
I love crackjak's posts, he never fails to make me laugh.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 7:44:22 AM
@CrakrJak

Anyway, this is all moot. You're an idiot on the internet. I'm an idiot on the internet. But the difference between us is that I'm humble enough to admit that and wise enough to listen to what the people who AREN'T idiots have to say.

Why do you have such a bug up your butt about evolution (and gay marriage) anyway? What the hell has it got to do with you?

As far as I'm aware, you're single, so marriage doesn't affect you...and you're single, so the propogation of your genes (therefore evolution) doesn't affect you either.

*why* do these things bother you so much to the point where you constantly make yourself look like a fool here? Is it masochism?

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 7:37:57 AM
@CrakrJak

"Which decrease the odds even more that anything 'beneficial' would survive."

But not to nil.

The earth is old as balls. There has been a LOT of time for very rare things to happen many times.

CrakrJak, you're arguing that evolution doesn't create benefits for species, and drives them to extinction, as if it's a dumb system. You're right...it IS dumb, as in "lacking in intelligence". There is no hand at the tiller. Evolution is a blind mechanic of nature, and it doesn't have any intentions or goals.

"NONE of it has been directly observed in nature."

Yes it has. Again, your ignorance of this at this point can only be deliberate.

Incidentally, why do you demand "directly observed" evidence? If a doctor tells you your blood test shows you have an infection, do you disbelieve them because they haven't looked directly at the bacteria?

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2850 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 7:36:43 AM
@CrakrJak

"Which decrease the odds even more that anything 'beneficial' would survive."

But not to nil.

The earth is old as balls. There has been a LOT of time.

CrakrJak, you're arguing that evolution doesn't create benefits for species, and drives them to extinction, as if it's a dumb system. You're right...it IS dumb, as in "lacking in intelligence". There is no hand at the tiller. Evolution is a blind mechanic of nature, and it doesn't have any intentions or goals.

"NONE of it has been directly observed in nature."

Yes it has. Again, your ignorance of this at this point can only be deliberate.

Incidentally, why do you demand "directly observed" evidence? If a doctor tells you your blood test shows you have an infection, do you disbelieve them because they haven't looked directly at the bacteria?

mervviscious
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 1807 Posts
Thursday, March 07, 2013 7:24:57 AM
that was so cool...

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