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God's God - Laughing At Atheists

Hits: 5627 | Rating: (2.9) | Category: Misc. | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 1 2 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24423 Posts
Friday, March 01, 2013 12:54:36 PM
@paperduck: Yes, I'm aiming for "internal consistancy", it's something I'm fond of!

That's a good way to explain "miracles": That God (or whomever) uses Laws of The Universe (physics, nature) that the rest of us don't understand, yet.

It's similar to AC Clark's notion that "advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic".

Not that you'll ever read this, but cheers!

paperduck
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 1703 Posts
Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:46:07 AM
5cats I think a better argument is there is no difference between physical laws and "miracles", it only seems different to us. That way you're consistent.

paperduck
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 1703 Posts
Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:35:46 AM
5cats Ok fine, but then miracles, when he chooses to break those laws He usually follows, should cause more harm than good too. It seems like you are playing both sides to suit you.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24423 Posts
Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:12:41 AM
@paperduck: Since God lives outside our "physical universe" He is not governed by it's Laws. However He chooses to obey these Laws for reasons unknown.
Probably because breaking Laws is a "bad thing" which causes more harm than good...

For example: He could "cure a plague" but that would upset the Natural Order (evolutionary process) and -might- eventually lead to an even WORSE plague! He'd know the chances of this, it's a "risk/benefit" thing.

Or: He might push a comet just a nudge, so it plows harmlessly into the Sun rather than wipe out 99% of all life on Earth...

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24423 Posts
Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:04:54 AM
Further Rantings:
Heaven: The place where God comes from, it has different Laws. Angels were created here.

When a soul's body dies, all souls goto heaven. It probably helps if you've been "true" during your lifetime.

The more intelligent your sepcies is? The better chance an individual will have a soul. A retard and a genius both have the same chance. It's species driven.

Most souls are there when you're born, but sometimes you can "create" one later, idk how exactly. Yes animals, fish and even plants & bugs can have souls, but not many of them.

God really likes souls. He is happy when one is born or created, and sad when one dies. When the body dies and the soul enters Heaven? He's very happy: That's the PLAN!

afaik...

paperduck
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 1703 Posts
Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:58:00 AM
5cats He has to obey the physical laws He created or "it would be cheating" BUT if he has a good reason He can perform miracles (and thus cheat?) Might want to think this through some more....

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24423 Posts
Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:50:01 AM
I feel like with omnipotence and omniscience, things could be better run, ya know?

Roger That! @Hopefulbliss! You'd think an "intelligent universe" would run "tickity-boo!" and not, you know, like THIS!

@patchy: I'd have a list of questions too

5Cats Theory: (which has no evidence at all, it's 100% opinion!)
God created the universe, via the Big Bang, and all the Physical Laws therein.
He has to obey them too, or it would be cheating. The few times he does "miracles" he needs a good reason. (IF He ever does, he might just watch).
The purpose of the universe is to create intelligent life with a soul in it.
Not all living things have souls. Souls are not immortal and can die or be born later in life.
Devils & demons are Angels whose souls have died.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5691 Posts
Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:09:51 AM
But what could be evidence for god?

I'd have to see him, or a video of him reading from the Bible or singing a psalm or something, with two forms of government ID, a police officer there to verify the whole thing, four or five of my buddies and 5cats taking notes, and one of God's angels there to confirm his identity. I think that would be reasonable.

paperduck
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 1703 Posts
Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:52:55 AM
Ok this video was really poorly done, but I guess it had a specific audience in mind. So here is the question it raised, does SOMETHING have to be eternal? Whether it's this universe or another entity, something has to be right?

Hopefulbliss
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 25 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:14:19 PM
*that know that god exist? Seems odd, and unfair, to me. I still don't like the idea of omniscience and omnipotence being combined in a Christian example of god. Even if he is unable to know the future, he knows the people, situations and environments he is creating. I feel like with omnipotence and omniscience, things could be better run, ya know? Anyway, thanks for the welcome 5Cats, good to be here.

Hopefulbliss
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 25 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:07:51 PM
=) Thanks 5Cats!

Ok, I see and agree with your point on omniscience. I guess I had always just thought of omniscience as including future actions as well, though that is apparently not the definition of omniscience. XD Though I still feel that there are some problems with omnipotence. Why can he only create things within physical laws that he created? He himself is beyond those physical laws. Here is a question. If God is beyond physical laws, since he created them, and he can only create things within such laws; then is god therefore not powerful enough to create another god? If he is unable to create another being like himself, is he therefore not omnipotent? And if he can create a god, can he therefore create beyond the faculties of known physical laws?
Angels/The devil, has never made much sense to me. Can angels die? If not, what is there "incentive" not to sin? If they are mortal, then are they not just longer living, more powerful, free willed, humans tha

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24423 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:20:10 PM
@Hopefulbliss: Welcome to IAB!
"know how everything would play out."
One cannot "know the future" it hasn't happened yet. God can predict stuff though, with HIGH liklihood & accuracy. But because of "free will" (including "His Own"?) and a few other things, teh future is not "set in stone" even if God knows what's 99% likely to happen, eh?

"Can god create a rock so heavy that he himself can't lift it." No, He can only create things within teh Physical Laws (which He created too). He cannot make a circle with straight edges, or some water that is dry, not wet. Altering the Laws requite "miracles".
ANY rock He crated? He can move it. Something that is by definition "impossible"? It's not a valid issue...
I'm a "Deist" btw...
"The Devil" is just an Angel who fell from grace through sin. God gave him "freewill" too!

LordJim
Male, 50-59, Europe
 4328 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 1:21:35 PM
But what could be evidence for god? A universally seen revelation in the sky, with everybody in the world simultaneously seeing the awesome sky-being as their particular god-image and in every dialect the same message booms down. I AM GOD. FEAR ME. OBEY ME.' Angels all over the place, a menace to air traffic. I'd remain unconviced, I can't think of anything that would convince me that could not have been produced by a really smart alien grifter.

What would convince you?

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5691 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:59:54 PM
@LordJim: I agree. If I were to have some kind of definitive evidence of God, not just some personal experience, but evidence that many people experienced and could verify, then I would have to change my view in light of that new evidence. But as I've said before, there's a chance that the next time I jump in the air I'll continue, unbound by gravity, into the stratosphere. But since that chance is infinitesimal, I choose to believe that instead I'll come right back down to the ground, a slave to gravity.

Tsuroyu
Male, 18-29, Western US
 55 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:36:56 PM
That was really awful. Just insanely preachy and condescending, but childish all at once. Nothing profound here, just the same old arguments everyone has heard 254897234 times. Give this one a skip.

LordJim
Male, 50-59, Europe
 4328 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:36:34 PM
patchgrabber,

That's more or less my position. I'm not saying there is no god, but I find the concept to be unnecessary, unevidenced and unconvincing. Also undesirable, but that's another issue.

I'm not even sure that the concept of god could reasonably called a hypothesis. More of a hunch, really. A hunch I don't share. But to each their own.

Religion, now...

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5691 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:27:42 AM
Why then do atheists criticize those who believe in God act like they know for a fact there is no God when the science they rely on cannot be certain?

In my opinion, those atheists just aren't being scientific, however being scientific is not necessary for atheism. This is where the whole agnostic vs. gnostic comes in. I, for one, do not know if a God exists, and I doubt I ever will in my time here. However, what I *can* do is apply scientific logic based on all the available information. Doing this, I come to the realization that there is no compelling evidence for the existence of a deity, as there is plentiful evidence to the contrary. So I suppose I act as if there is no God, because to ignore the evidence otherwise is irrational and illogical. But then faith and religion are by their nature irrational and illogical.

MrPeabody
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 1795 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:18:59 AM
Some may reply, free will. In the case of free will he would either know what we were going to do before we did it, or not. In which case he either knows what we will do our entire lives, therefore no true free will but a pre-scripted life...


I know what my dog will do if the gate is open when I let him out. He has the freedom to stay in the yard or run. I know him well enough to know that without a doubt he will run. It does not mean his life is scripted by me. It just means I am smart enough to know what his actions will be.

PirateNinja
Female, 13-17, Eastern US
 121 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:18:28 AM
This was conceptually interesting, but I found it simultaneously too pretentious and juvenile to take seriously. -.-

MrPeabody
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 1795 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:06:18 AM
Problem with this is that you cannot treat God as such, because there is no test with current technology that can verify the existence of a deity.


Which is exactly the point. Why then do atheists criticize those who believe in God act like they know for a fact there is no God when the science they rely on cannot be certain? This is why I say they Should treat it like a theory that has yet to be proven and move on with their lives. The same goes for religious people, if someone does not want to hear what they have to say, then move on and let it go. I would think in this life we have move to worry about than bashing people for their beliefs.

DrProfessor
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 3884 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:13:37 AM
@EgalM- through study of the Higgs-Boson particle at the LHC, current calculations suggest an inherent instability in matter, which eventually opens up into a bubble of a lower-energy state somewhere in the universe. Since everything naturally gravitates to being in a low energy state (think of it this way. matter is even lazier than we are. if it can do less work to exist, it will.) all of matter then gets sucked into that bubble, forming the pre-big-bang mass. That bubble then opens up to occupy the surrounding emptiness, and the big bang happens all over again.

Now, to be sure this is merely in the hypothetical stages, they haven't stood by and said that's exactly how it works yet. They need to conduct more studies on the Higgs before they can have any certainty. And since they're performing repairs/upgrades on the LHC for the next year or two, it'll be a while before they go and submit their findings for peer review.

TL;DR- don't talk science if you don't know how

Zuriel
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 539 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:17:00 AM
hook line and sinker... awesome

8BitHero
Male, 18-29, Europe
 5426 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:08:27 AM
Last minute was pretty good!

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5691 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:30:48 AM
If Atheists truly want to be scientific then they should treat God like a scientific theory that has yet to be proved or disproved.

Problem with this is that you cannot treat God as such, because there is no test with current technology that can verify the existence of a deity. It's like attributing metaphysical properties to a tree and saying "prove or disprove." You just can't do it.

if he does exist, nothing in the physical realm applies to Him because He would have created it.

Now that is an assumption, one that would have to be verified on its own before you could accept it as fact. After all, I saw a Dutch artist create a cloud inside a room, but his creation is still bound by the properties of the universe. I could argue the same for God.

andybme
Male, 50-59, Western US
 296 Posts
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:04:56 AM
LOL so true

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