 CoyoteKing
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 2994 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:08:19 AM
"Every definition of theft I have found has as an element of "intent to permanently deprive the owner of the possession"
Clearly this is not a theft. So what's the big deal? The temporary taking of the skateboard is such a small issue compared to the actions of the kids."
so if i steal a car but plan to return it then its no longer theft? i am not permanently depriving the owner of the possession. just temporarily. |
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CoyoteKing
Male, 18-29, Southern US
2994 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:06:52 AM
@nettech98:"Absent anything to the contrary how about we call it a 'seizure' instead of a theft? After all it was not in the possession of anyone at the time the took it..."
so if someone drops their wallet or phone on my property i can hold it indefinitely until i see fit and have no obligation to return it to the owner despite that i saw the owner drop it and try to pick it up before i grabbed it?
"Absent anything to the contrary how about we call it a 'seizure' instead of a theft? After all it was not in the possession of anyone at the time the took it.."
she was the one forcibly holding onto his property. what he could have done if he was smart was hold onto the board and stay put (after she grabbed it) so that she has 2 options, hold onto the board and be stuck outside with him and away from the phone. or release the board to reach a phone. i guess there is a 3rd option and she could try to forcibly rip the board from the owners hand |
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 nettech98
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
835 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:05:43 AM
Every definition of theft I have found has as an element of "intent to permanently deprive the owner of the possession"
Clearly this is not a theft. So what's the big deal? The temporary taking of the skateboard is such a small issue compared to the actions of the kids. |
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 patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:05:41 AM
Assault?
It's not assault to try and take your illegally confiscated property back, they weren't touching her, they were just grabbing at the skateboard, that's not assault. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:05:18 AM
, 2013 10:56:18 AM
@patchgrabber: So you're saying that under NY law she could detain them but she couldn't touch their skateboards in the process of doing that?
I'm not saying that at all. The law you cited doesn't allow the occupier to detain the trespasser, merely to be able to use force to prevent or terminate the trespass; detaining is criminal.
You're assuming that her taking the skateboard is a 'theft'.
So if I take your cell phone without your permission and won't give it back to you, I haven't stolen your phone? That's news to me.
Is it a 'theft' to tow someone's illegally parked car on private property?...how about we call it a 'seizure' instead of a theft?
Towing isn't theft because she isn't keeping it or restricting access to it. And what law says it's ok for a citizen to seize another's property?
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 mytbozak
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
328 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:03:33 AM
@Listypoos Dam i wish i knew about that when i was young. And if there are no trespassing signs up people cannot sue you if they hurt themselves on that property. That is law in the U.S. |
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 HalfPintRoo
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
2047 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:03:04 AM
I can't help but laugh at the ending |
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nettech98
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
835 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:56:18 AM
@patchgrabber: So you're saying that under NY law she could detain them but she couldn't touch their skateboards in the process of doing that?
You're assuming that her taking the skateboard is a 'theft'. That word has been tossed around this thread like it's a fact. Is it a 'theft' to tow someone's illegally parked car on private property? No. Absent anything to the contrary how about we call it a 'seizure' instead of a theft? After all it was not in the possession of anyone at the time the took it...
And how about the forcible taking back of the skateboard by someone other than the owner? Assault? Even if it was the owner - still assault? Assault in the commission of criminal trespass? |
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 Beardofzeus
Male, 18-29, Europe
520 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:55:56 AM
Who cares about the subtle legalities - she fell and it was funny because she escalated the situation! |
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mytbozak
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
328 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:55:31 AM
I would say at least their not out robbing people but they are on private property and their just being dicks, so screw em. |
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jfactor
Male, 18-29, Southern US
115 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:50:04 AM
They weren't doing any harm to anything, she just wanted to be a bitch. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:41:11 AM
@nettech: You're not applying that law correctly though...
when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a criminal trespass upon such premises.
The taking of the skateboard was not meant to prevent or terminate the trespass, in point of fact she stated that she was keeping it so they would STAY until police arrived. Even *if* taking the skateboard was lawful, it would become unlawful once they said they would leave if they got the skateboard back. |
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 LandoGriffin
Male, 30-39, Western US
4267 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:40:33 AM
Skateboarding is not a crime, but trespassing and destruction of property is. |
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CoyoteKing
Male, 18-29, Southern US
2994 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:38:26 AM
that thief got what she deserved. if she wanted them to leave she should have just called the cops to begin with and not try to steal someone's property |
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nettech98
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
835 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:32:41 AM
Here's an example from NY law:
"A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force upon another person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a criminal trespass upon such premises. He may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and he may use deadly physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in subdivision three."
"A person is guilty of [a criminal] trespass when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises. Trespass is a violation." |
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 Listypoos
Male, 30-39, Europe
1479 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:29:53 AM
that1joshguy... not in the UK she couldn't. I did say i was answering from a uk law point of view.
I have just checked with my lawyer g/friend on your point and firstly the goods wouldn't be considered stolen property because she's not committed theft in getting the board, and also the uk legal definition of the offence of handling stolen goods is
"knowing or believing them to be stolen goods he dishonestly receives the goods, or dishonestly undertakes or assists in their retention, removal, disposal or realisation by or for the benefit of another person, or if he arranges to do so"
which clearly doesn't apply from the evidence in the video because there was nothing 'dishonest' in the intent to remove the property.
As I said in my previous post, it may well be different in the US... but i wasn't answering from that point of view. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:23:50 AM
@nettech: That would depend on what the law says. She is not an officer of the law and is not able to act in such a capacity. If there is a sign saying vehicles will be towed, then if someone left their car there I would assume the law allows a car to be towed. I'm fairly certain average citizens don't have access to a boot, but if she did boot it it would likely be illegal. I found a source that says towing of trespassing vehicles in Georgia is lawful, but booting or immobilizing is not. Stealing a skateboard is not comparable. |
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 sparki1980
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
293 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:18:47 AM
"weren't out there with the intention...."
Intent isn't really considered in tort court. If you were doing something you shouldn't, with zero intent to harm others or their property but it ends up causing someone else or their property harm... your lack of intent is not even considered. |
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 Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
25682 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:18:32 AM
But if one of those snot-rags fell off the board because they hit a bump they'd sue the property. She should'a whacked'em on the head with the board.
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 that1joshguy
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
176 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:18:08 AM
nettech booting a car and flat out taking the car are not the same thing |
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nettech98
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
835 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:15:58 AM
@patchgrabber: I go back to my question. If they had illegaly parked a car in her lot and she booted (or towed) the car, would you be making the same argument that she can't do that?
It's not like she took the board from the kid's hands... |
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that1joshguy
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
176 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:13:52 AM
right I agree crak but they boys weren't out there with the intention of tearing up her property... had they been maliciously smashing stuff with their boards then thats something all together different. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:13:32 AM
If someone throws a brick through your window and you keep the brick as evidence of the crime that's not stolen property.
And if they threw the skateboard at her then that might mean something. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:12:35 AM
That is why she took the skateboard, they'd either be stupid enough to stay and get caught by the police or run away and lose the board. Either way the lesson would be taught.
Oh so apparently stealing private property is ok now? You can't just use the argument "The police take too long" to justify illegal vigilante behaviour. Others have it right: Ask them to leave, call the police, video if you can. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:07:35 AM
Hmm, maybe I'm mistaken on what I just said about our trespassing laws...I remember them from when I had worked security and had to take a quick course on common things like trespassing. They would have been trespassing here too. But yeah, you can't steal someone's property in an effort to detain them there until police arrive. |
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