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Biden Admits Gun Measures Will Fail

Hits: 13888 | Rating: (2.0) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: dognose82
Page: 1 24 5 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4453 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 2:33:13 PM
OldOllie

"if he admits that their proposals won't accomplish their stated goals, what, then, are their ACTUAL goals?"

Has their stated goal ever been to eliminate all chances of mass shootings? If not, then his statement does not admit the proposal won't accomplish the stated goal.

I would say the ACTUAL goal is to do whatever possible to lessen the chance of a mass shooting, while acknowledging that no action will ever eliminate the possibility entirely.

I feel like we are arguing over what the definition of "is" is. 1 statement is that nothing we do will stop all future gun shootings. The other is we have to diminish the possibility of future shootings. Those statements simply DO NOT contradict each other.

OldOllie
Male, 60-69, Midwest US
 11707 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 2:23:27 PM
HG, "fundamentally alter or eliminate" = "do Jack $#!+ about." Once again you weasel out of answering the question: if he admits that their proposals won't accomplish their stated goals, what, then, are their ACTUAL goals?

Squrlz4Sale
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 5972 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 1:28:26 PM
@HolyGod:

I have seen hundreds of comments on here on dozens of gun related posts and I do not recall a SINGLE attempt to put forth an alternative solution.


*ahem* See my earlier post regarding The Squrlz Solution.

SoCal
Male, 18-29, Western US
 651 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 1:27:28 PM
who cares.

Squrlz4Sale
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 5972 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 1:25:50 PM
~pulls whiskers in frustration~

Can we all just agree, wherever we may stand on the issue of gun control, that this is a sloppy piece of journalism? It muddies the waters with a logical fallacy and does nothing whatsoever to bring light to the issue.

Way to go, Ms. Crappy Journalist.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4453 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 1:15:58 PM
To everyone on the opposite side of this issue:

I do not know if the president's proposal will do anything to help. I don't. Maybe it won't. Please give me some alternatives that you think will help the situation.

I have seen hundreds of comments on here on dozens of gun related posts and I do not recall a SINGLE attempt to put forth an alternative solution.

I refuse to believe we have to live in a country that just has to deal with a room full of dead kindergarteners, or a mall shooting, or a theater massacre every few months. We have to do something. SO unless you have an alternative suggestion as to what that something is, I don't feel that you have a whole lot of right to slam the people that are at least TRYING to do SOMETHING.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4453 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 12:13:11 PM
OldOllie

"you're just nitpicking over a trifling detail to avoid answering the question. Okay, fine, change "stop" to "diminish" in my statement. Now, answer the damned question."

Well your question is based off of the statement:

"Then he admits that what they are proposing isn't going to do Jack $#!+ to accomplish that."

I completely disagree about him saying that.

The quote is "Nothing we're going to do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting"

In my opinion he is saying we can never eliminate the possibility of another shooting, which is true. However that statement can be true while still trying to make the possibility as low as possible. Would you not agree?

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4453 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 12:08:07 PM
Turdburgler

"HG - A semi auto AK 47 is not a machine gun."

When did I use the word semi? He has a fully automatic AK-47.

"So what if I couldn't recite ALL 10 of the bill of rights from the top of my head."

Do you really not see the contradiction in acting as if something is SOOO important when in fact you don't actually fully know what that thing is?

"As for the 7th amendment, I am unaware of it's removal."

States: "In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved"

Good luck getting a trial jury for a lawsuit of $24 bucks. We don't do that anymore because times changed and $20 USED to be a significant amount of money, much in the same way "arms" USED to be a muzzle loaded musket. The point is times change.

OldOllie
Male, 60-69, Midwest US
 11707 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 11:46:12 AM
Did he say that in another instance?

He says "diminish" not "stop".


HG, you're just nitpicking over a trifling detail to avoid answering the question. Okay, fine, change "stop" to "diminish" in my statement. Now, answer the damned question.

turdburglar
Male, 30-39, Western US
 3054 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 11:42:36 AM

HG - A semi auto AK 47 is not a machine gun. Machine gun implies full auto capability. They are not legal to carry without very specific, and expensive permits and registration.

So what if I couldn't recite ALL 10 of the bill of rights from the top of my head. I never said I could, no one has. That is just you changing the topic. My point is that most laws come and go as time progresses, but the bill of rights was the basis of this country. The framework of America was built around these unalienable RIGHTS. America without those rights would not be America.

As for the 7th amendment, I am unaware of it's removal. This is the first time I've ever heard that "We already don't follow the 7th amendment".

whodat6484
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3342 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 11:41:18 AM
@Squrlz4Sale - Why children? You're just using them as an example because people tend to be outraged more if children are involved. There have been 62 "mass shootings" in the US since 1982, 25 of those 62 have occurred since 2006. 12 of these shootings were at schools, 19 in the workplace, the remaining 31 took place in locations including shopping malls, restaurants, and religious & government buildings. Contrary to what you see in the news, mass shootings are not more common in schools as opposed to other public places.

@HolyGod - Yes and no. You'll get a few of them but after 5 or 6 rounds you'll be hitting the ceiling and the only way to compensate is to muscle it back on target which also greatly reduces accuracy. Also, since they're not designed or made to handle that rate of fire chances are it will jam on you pretty quick. That's one of the main reasons the standard issue M16A4 doesn't have a full-auto option, just semi & 3 round burst.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21813 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 11:40:05 AM
Very funny @Squirlz! The idea of "Gladiator Games" as bloodsport has been around for a while.
Movies: Running Man, Hunger Games, The Warriors?

Anyhow, that's what Pro-2nd Amendment folks are trying to PREVENT eh? A world where only the criminals (and cops) have guns.

When seconds count? The cops are minutes away!

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4453 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 11:20:38 AM
McGovern1981

"will take alot of money plus it has to have been made before 1985 I think."

Absolutely. I believe 1985 for domestic automatics and 1965 for imported automatics. Just to be clear I DO NOT think automatic weapons are much of a problem here. They are very hard to get a hold of. I was just responding to the comment that they are illegal which is not the case.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4453 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 11:18:36 AM
whodat1964

"@HolyGod - Sure, you could do it. Good luck hitting what you're aiming at though."

Well if it is a packed dark movie theater or a room full of kindergarteners you don't have to be all that precise, wouldn't you agree?

Squrlz4Sale
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 5972 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 11:09:46 AM
You'll all be happy to know I've solved the shooting massacre problem. I call it "The Squrlz Solution." Modeled on newer techniques of forest management, the SS will periodically place AR-15s with high-capacity clips in the hands of the mentally deranged and encourage them to commit controlled schoolyard shootings of just three or four children. These shooters will then be picked off by trained police snipers kept on standby. In the same way that controlled burns prevent massive forest fires (thanks, 5Cats, for the reminder) this controlled release of 2nd Amendment rights and psychotic behavior will prevent larger tragedies while also appeasing the NRA--at a cost of just 8 to 12 schoolchildren a year.

Thank you. ~bows~

McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 12711 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 11:02:03 AM
High capacity mags are legal in some states other states you can get them if they're preban meaning made before the first "assault weapon" ban. Anything full auto or like a sawed off shotgun is class 3 and you have to get a license for that which takes alot of time and then a class 3 weapon will take alot of money plus it has to have been made before 1985 I think.

whodat6484
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3342 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 10:53:09 AM
@HolyGod - Sure, you could do it. Good luck hitting what you're aiming at though. I know 100 round drums are illegal here in NY but I can't speak for the rest of the country.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4453 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 10:39:37 AM
whodat6484

I agree with everything you said. I think the media plays off people's ignorance and fears. However would you agree I could buy an AR-15, a bump stock, and a 100 round barrel all legally and without any registration and then walk into a public place with the ability to fire 100 shots in less than 30 seconds?

whodat6484
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 3342 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 10:34:24 AM
The AR15 style rifles are being targeted simply because of their appearance. The information you're given by the media is aimed to influence those with little or no knowledge of them to believe that the AR15 you can buy at your local gun store is the same as the M4 I carried in the mountains/villages of Afghanistan & the streets of Iraq. Cosmetically, they look the same but they are different functionally. By definition, a TRUE "assault rifle" is selective fire (SAFE, SEMI-AUTO, BURST, AUTO). The gov't labels civilian models "assault weapons" (which is still wrong, technically speaking) NOT "assault rifles." The selector switch on a legal, store bought AR15 has two positions, SAFE & FIRE. Therefore, it's NOT an "assault rifle." States that allow AUTO or BURST require it to be registered with the ATF.

Kain1
Male, 18-29, Europe
 1463 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 10:25:14 AM
@5Cats:


HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4453 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 10:18:08 AM
I am literally blown away by this debate.

diminish =/= stop

He was being frank and honest that while they will do everything to try to stop mass shootings the possibility of another would always exist.

If this was bush talking and he wasn't contradicting himself and some news story tried to make it appear that way I would be on here slamming it just as much. This is common sense. Several conservatives on here admitted this wasn't a contradiction.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4453 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 10:14:45 AM
turdburglar

"but the bill of rights is the foundation which this country is built on. Those rights are NOT NEGOTIABLE."

We already don't follow the 7th amendment. If the bill of rights are so important are you honestly telling me you know all 10 exactly? I can admit I didn't. I got hazy on 7-10 and had to go back and look them up. The point is the people screaming at the top of their lungs about how important the bill of rights are usually can't name all 10. You and I know that.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4453 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 10:10:07 AM
Turdburglar

"Machine guns are not legal in America."

Yes. Yes. Yes they are. My gilrfriend's father owns a perfectly legal AK-47. Go research and then come back and join the conversation.

turdburglar
Male, 30-39, Western US
 3054 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 10:08:35 AM

"Ya. I'm familiar with that. What exactly does that have to do with guns?"

It's pretty simple HG. There are many laws that can and should be revised as democracy dictates...but the bill of rights is the foundation which this country is built on. Those rights are NOT NEGOTIABLE. Their exact definition may up for debate, but removing any of those rights is not. The bill of rights is America, if you can't accept it, you don't belong here.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21813 Posts
Friday, February 08, 2013 10:06:08 AM
He says: "Nothing we're going to do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting"


So passing all these laws will... DO NOTHING? THAT is the contradiction. Biden is the guy IN CHARGE of the whole "gun control" thing for the White House. If HE says it's useless? Then WHY spend billions on it?
Oh yes, it will cost billions. One way or another.

@Squirlz: After a horrific forest fire in British Columbia (Canada) they studied how such a thing could have happened.
The cause? Because so many 'small' fires were put out, there was lots of material for the BIG fire to burn!
In other words, the big fire was (at least partly) the result of effective fire-fighting. The suggested solution was more "controled burns" and underbrush clearing.

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