 McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 10208 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 1:26:41 PM
Here's the problem with these Harvard "experts" it's a group of know it alls that in reality lack common sense. A common occurance with those that have swollen heads and egos. Example if the "experts" had their way in the UK you wouldn't be able to own a kitchen knife because you commoners can't be trusted with anything. |
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 HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
1139 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 1:03:28 PM
@technophebe
[quote">Oh was my link to the *actual* Harvard university website where they completely disagree with you not enough to debunk your paper by people fraudulently trying to appear to be publishing under Harvard?[/quote">
Read what I wrote to @patchgrabber. You guys seriously didn't see that I rescinded that claim? All you have to do is read; it's simple.
[quote">Sorry I didn't realize your standards were so high.[/quote">
Well now you know.
[quote">I'll try and find some sources other than one of the most highly reknowned universities in the world to contradict your obscure "Harvard" paper[/quote">
Great! I've also included one from Stanford (I think); there are plenty more though. Here's one from a Vanderbilt professor: Will Rationing Guns Reduce Crime? |
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HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
1139 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 1:00:12 PM
@patch
The paper you included wasn't a Harvard study, but was published in a student journal run by conservatives and libertarians, and none of their submissions are peer-reviewed
I know... I agreed that I was incorrect originally when I later (11:51:55) stated the following:
Additionally, the article appears to have been written to be included in a Harvard paper rather than an article sponsered by Harvard.
I had also stated that it appears to have been refuted and then also included another article (yes, John Lott was part of it - and yes, I'm sure Donahue has found something he thinks is wrong with it). |
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 technophebe
Male, 30-39, Europe
25 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 12:58:51 PM
Oh was my link to the *actual* Harvard university website where they completely disagree with you not enough to debunk your paper by people fraudulently trying to appear to be publishing under Harvard?
Sorry I didn't realize your standards were so high. I'll try and find some sources other than one of the most highly reknowned universities in the world to contradict your obscure "Harvard" paper. |
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 patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5263 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 12:48:15 PM
@HA: The paper you included wasn't a Harvard study, but was published in a student journal run by conservatives and libertarians, and none of their submissions are peer-reviewed, and there isn't a standard list of editors that would guarantee the legitimacy of the journal. That and I'm pretty sure the murder rate in Luxembourg is overstated by an order of magnitude. So that paper doesn't really have any credence to it. |
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kvetcher
Male, 50-59, Europe
42 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 12:44:43 PM
And why has a 1999 article in the (UK) Daily Mail on violent crime in the UK shot up to third in Google's searches for "Violent crime stats UK"? When the real figures are so low? |
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 Danaxu
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
10 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 12:39:50 PM
 |
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kvetcher
Male, 50-59, Europe
42 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 12:27:28 PM
@CrakrJak Those figures from Warner are over four years out of date. Alan Johnson, mentioned in the source article became UK Home secretary in June 2009.
The latest England and Wales crime stats actually show a fall to the lowest recorded levels. |
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HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
1139 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 11:51:55 AM
@technophebe
After doing some searching, it seems that I have found one claim that attempts to refute this article. Additionally, the article appears to have been written to be included in a Harvard paper rather than an article sponsered by Harvard.
However, there are plenty of scholarly articles suggesting that either side is correct. Rather amusingly, they all claim to know better than the "other guys."
For instance, to further our bodies of evidence, I submit: Confirming More Guns, Less Crime. Eventually, this will boil down to whether or not it is appropriate to use econometrics to investigate the relationship between firearms and crime. From my research, if you allow the use of econometrics, then the conclusion is that firearm rates inversely correlate with crime. |
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HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
1139 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 11:31:54 AM
@technophebe
It's on the Harvard Law server - check the domain. I have to assume that this means that it is being sponsored by Harvard, since it's like, totally on their website and sh*t.
Seriously, you will need to try harder than "it's so totally debunked." |
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technophebe
Male, 30-39, Europe
25 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 10:08:31 AM
Yes unfortunately HumanAction, that's a widely debunked study that was published falsely under the Harvard name by right-wingers who in fact have no connection with Harvard.
Below is a link to the *actual* Harvard where you will find a load of articles contradicting and debunking the conclusions of Kates and Mauser.
Harvard School of Public Health |
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HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
1139 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 8:13:09 AM
If anyone has the time, here is a lovely read from a Harvard study that supports my previous claims that violent crime (including murder) rates are widely independent of firearm availability and market saturation. Additionally, this article provides further evidence for my claim that murder rates are primarily determined by socioeconomic and cultural factors.
Harvard Law Study
To quote: "Whether causative or not, the consistent international pattern is that more guns equal less murder and other violent crime." |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5263 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 6:58:04 AM
And here are the crimes that the U.S. and Canada consider to be violent crime. Even so much as pointing a gun at someone here is violent crime, so stop clinging to data because it supports your distorted world view and get yourself a reality check. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5263 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 6:56:21 AM
But since you like charts so much...
Comparison of aggravated assault and robbery.
Comparison of murder. Since these are the only violent crimes that can be compared, it would seem yours is much more violent. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5263 Posts
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Friday, February 01, 2013 6:34:33 AM
I'm sorry if the facts and statistics get in the way of your liberal anti-gun rhetoric, but that's reality.
Wow, where to start? First, the "data" says conservatives where it says source, but that wasn't the point I was making. Second, it was compiled by a newspaper that was trying to make the current UK government look bad. Third, and this is the real point, I don't care where the data are from, because it's the METHODOLOGY that's wrong. You'd apparently like to live in a dream world where you can compare completely different things and say they're equal. It's like looking at two people's criminal records and only counting a few crimes for one person, and counting more crimes for another, and concluding that the latter person has committed more offences. Stop being stubborn, that chart is meaningless. If you think I'm wrong ask one of your conservative buddies to back you up. |
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 Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
25602 Posts
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 9:22:39 PM
All I know is there ain't no bobsleds in Havana.
I'm siding with the old guy. |
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 Xprez
Male, 30-39, Western US
282 Posts
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:11:11 PM
I agree with Gerry1of1. |
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Xprez
Male, 30-39, Western US
282 Posts
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:10:05 PM
Right..... Something doesn't make sense. I'm sure they were lost and were just the nicest people. They sound legal too.........not. |
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 Zeegrr60
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
1514 Posts
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:55:11 PM
Gun people are not in the top ten percent I.Q. groups. |
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 5Cats
Male, 40-49, Canada
16929 Posts
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:15:30 PM
I wasn't concerned about them "going skating" but I wondered why they couldn't find "their friend's house" even with a GPS...
THAT make me go "hummm..."
As for the ".22 pistol" it may have been a .257 which actually packs a whallop! Or just a (un)lucky shot.
It looks like the old guy was in the wrong, but it wouldn't shock me if "furter details" tell us otherwise.
Of course the MSM would NEVER cover THAT... |
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 CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
14374 Posts
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:11:58 PM
patchgrabber: That graphic I posted is compiled data from the European Commission and United Nations. Neither would be considered 'conservative' sources.
I'm sorry if the facts and statistics get in the way of your liberal anti-gun rhetoric, but that's reality. |
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dognose82
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
88 Posts
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 3:57:11 PM
Check his immigration status. If he was illegal, then it is a federal crime. Depending on the state it could be a felony. Again, if they were in the act of committing a felony (being here illegally) then it is a justifiable homicide. Not saying it's right, but I can see a twisted court case coming. |
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technophebe
Male, 30-39, Europe
25 Posts
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 2:39:47 PM
As I tried to say in my last post:
No doubt the gun-apologists will completely ignore the fact that I've posted some actual figures rather than just insults and vague "sounds like it could be right but no actual support" arguments, but as a wiser man than me said...
 |
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McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
10208 Posts
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 2:01:28 PM
Oh ya those are completely no biased instutions....ROFL!!!
 |
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technophebe
Male, 30-39, Europe
25 Posts
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 1:26:30 PM
Handful of articles from respectable institutions making it clear which side of this argument is in the right:
Forbes
Harvard School of Public Health
BloombergBusinessweek
John Hopkins Centre for Gun Policy and Research
No doubt the gun- |
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