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Let's Take A Look At REAL Crime Stats, Thank You

Hits: 9358 | Rating: (3.0) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: Pooptart19
Page: 1 24 5 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
klaxor
Male, 18-29, Western US
 647 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:52:34 PM
And rape isn't theft, it's rape.

that's why it's not called grand theft or auto theft.

klaxor
Male, 18-29, Western US
 647 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:50:08 PM
HA-Your mom, not you. Like I said, have a conversation, and open your f*ing mind. I also have relatives, that's why I don't equate rape to property crime.

You keep equating life to property. If you are attacked, go ahead and shoot. If those thugs beat up your tv, then sorry, it's unlawful. Your tv isn't a person, or equal to a human life.

If you don't like being called a dumbass, then don't say dumbass poo

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16136 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:46:36 PM
HG: My concern is indiscriminate murder and mass murder. What worries me is someone walking into a mall or a theater or a school where me or my children are with a gun and blasting away.


Then advocate for better mental health care instead of attempting to usurp the 2nd amendment rights of the citizenry.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2305 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:23:25 PM
@klaxor

I suggest you actually talk with a rape victim to get an understand of its effects

My mother is a rape victim. Your turn.

It seriously drats up your LIFE.

... and being stabbed doesn't? Being beaten by a group of 8 adults doesn't?

It's not just theft, even in technicality.

It is a very specific form of theft, as I have already explained.

To say so GREATLY diminishes the anguish of a rape.

What about the anguish of being stabbed? Or beaten? Or attacked with acid? So on and so forth.

You sound like a dumbass.

This is what you've become? Someone presents an argument that you have no counter for and this is how you handle it? How disappointing.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2305 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:19:38 PM
@Gerry

Not true, while aliens cannot vote, they still get the same freedom of speech, the right to assemble, and most of the others. Those are considered inalienable human rights.

The question is, are these inalienable rights for aliens because it is mandated by the Constitution, or because they are provided by our government?

If the Constitution covers all people, why then are Constitutional rights abused at Gitmo? This alone suggests that the Constitution does not apply to everyone.

Perhaps a better explanation is that Constitutional rights apply to anyone in the US rather than US citizens. Even so, there are situations where this is not so (we cannot arrest a US citizen and deport them afterall).

klaxor
Male, 18-29, Western US
 647 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:16:46 PM
The US has the duty to uphold Constitutional Human Rights within its boundaries. That's one of the reasons we can defend ourselves. We also protect other individuals within our borders. I wouldn't want China arresting anyone on American soil.
Japanese internment was unlawful. I don't know where you go "the right to arrest citizens b/c another country..."

Like I said, you can protect your life. If a guy pulls a weapon on you then yeah, go ahead and shoot to kill. But if you catch him stealing an orange from your store and he runs away, then no, it's not lawful or legal. At least according to US Constitution.

HA- I suggest you actually talk with a rape victim to get an understand of its effects, and should stfu until you do. It seriously drats up your LIFE. It's not just theft, even in technicality. To say so GREATLY diminishes the anguish of a rape. You sound like a dumbass.




Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
 33696 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:14:51 PM
"Our constitution stands for the rights of all humans"
"Only US citizens"


Not true, while aliens cannot vote, they still get the same freedom of speech, the right to assemble, and most of the others. Those are considered inalienable human rights.

HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
 4455 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:07:14 PM
"In 2011 out of the homicides that were caused by firearms only 3.5% were caused by rifles"

Most murders are caused by handguns? No s.hit. MOST murders don't concern me, don't pose a threat to me or my family, and don't involve me.

It would be nice if nobody got murdered. But a guy shooting his business partner, or a woman murdering her ex husband, or the myriad of other typical murders of one person killing another person don't worry me. They don't scare me.

Discriminate murder, murder for a specific reason, whether it is shooting with a gun or stabbing or poisoning will never be stopped. My concern is indiscriminate murder and mass murder.

What worries me is someone walking into a mall or a theater or a school where me or my children are with a gun and blasting away.


5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21845 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 1:55:02 PM
Rape involves a detriment to life.

So does holding a knife in my face and stealing my Timex. What's your point? Is the trauma I feel less worthy of protection under Law than that of others? Does the amount of cash stolen determine if it's a crime or not?
If a criminal beats me and robs me, it's less important than if he beats, robs and rapes me? Aside from the addition of a 3rd crime, it's still bad to "only" beat and rob, right?

So when the attack starts, how am I (the victem) supposed to the the difference? I should wait until rape starts before I'm "allowed to" defend myself? Just where do you draw that line?

Me? (and @HA too I'd guess) say the instant the attack begins: defending ones property is identical to defending one's life. ONLY in the aftermath can one tell the difference.

20/20 hindsight is NOT a good thing.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2305 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 1:50:16 PM
Rape involves a detriment to life. To say that it is temporary shows that you have no concept of the issue.

Rape, in it's essence, is a very specific type of theft. It is the forceful taking of ones property without consent. Skirting the argument via some plea for empathy demonstrates a lack of counter-argument.

By your logic, you suggest that the "raped but living rapist" scenario is preferable to the "dead rapist but not raped" scenario.

The US can choose to protect individuals from other govt's that they feel have unjust laws.

Perhaps it is you who has misunderstood our founding fathers. It is called non-interventionalism.

Also, you justified killing for property as "The American Way"

I justified killing for the defense of an individual's liberty. As is demonstrated in my rape scenario.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21845 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 1:49:00 PM
@HumanAction: Entire "Japanese" families were rounded up too. Women & children included.

@klaxor: If a knife-armed guy breaks into my house and I defend myself (just to scare him, not even shooting!) with a gun? It's likely that I'M going to jail for longer than him. Canada has some really stupid laws.

"nothing trumps life"
And people questioned what gun rights and abortion have in common? (on that other thread) Pay attention folks! Apparently some things DO indeed trump life...

Apparently, @klaxor, you don't understand the difference between "laws" and "rights" at all. The USA does not have "the right" to arrest it's own citizens because the actions of another nation make it angry. It may be "legal" but it's not "constitutional". Ok?

klaxor
Male, 18-29, Western US
 647 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 1:41:33 PM
Rape involves a detriment to life. To say that it is temporary shows that you have no concept of the issue.

The US can choose to protect individuals from other govt's that they feel have unjust laws. It feels that Japan has just laws.

I'm not against owning guns.

The problem with equating life to property is that you have to put a monetary value on life. Since all men are created equal, that value goes for everyone. That would be the only way to legally kill someone, if they stole something worth more than their life.

So where do you put the value of a life, including your own? A Lamborghini? An Ipad? A slice of bread?

Also, you justified killing for property as "The American Way". Problem is, even right to kill laws state that you can only kill if you feel that your life is threatened, not if a guy is stealing from you. That is the reason why there needs to be some licensing laws. People don't even know the law.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2305 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 1:27:42 PM
If you want to change it to "Life liberty and the American way" then you have to go into the constitution to change it.

Why would I want to do that?

Constitution derives it's laws from the inalienable rights of All Men.

Are Japanese men protected from their governments by the US Constitution? The answer, of course, is no. The scope of the Consitution is limited to the entities which have the capacity to enforce it - namely, the US government.

The purpose of laws is to reduce the number of times it is an unfair advantage

That's why concealed carry is an excellent option.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2305 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 1:25:02 PM
Nothing trumps life

Let us consider rape then. By your logic, a woman should give up her ability to defend herself with lethal force because the rapists life is more valuable than her liberty. Do you stand by your argument?

You have committed yourself to the argument that life is worth protecting moreso than something temporary. Therefore, let us imagine two scenarios:

First, a woman is attacked by a would-be rapist; she is armed. With her weapon, she kills the attacker and is not raped.

Second, a woman is attacked by a rapist; she is dependent on a police force to protect her. Since the average response time is several minutes in her area, she is raped.

You seriously this that scenario #2 is preferable to #1? You will never convince me of the same.

klaxor
Male, 18-29, Western US
 647 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 1:12:59 PM
Nothing trumps life. It is at a minimum equal to liberty. If you want to get technical, it is mentioned first and has precedence. If you want to change it to "Life liberty and the American way" then you have to go into the constitution to change it.

Constitution derives it's laws from the inalienable rights of All Men. That's why even immigrants have certain rights.

The purpose of laws is to reduce the number of times it is an unfair advantage;i.e. in the hands of a criminal.

And i don't know about Canada, but in the US you only have the right to shoot if you feel that your life is threatened.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21845 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 1:02:23 PM
Property Crime is caused by GREED. More than all other factors combined, greed is why people steal.
If it were "poverty" then why do rich people steal things too? Obviously having money doesn't preclude being a criminal, correct? Bernie Madoff?

And millions of "poor people" are as honest as the day is long! So what seperates a "poor honest person" from a "poor criminal"? GREED. The easy way out, the shortcut, the idea that "I have a right to what YOU own!"

Why should I work for months to get something when I can stick a knife into YOU and take it! It's just a few seconds of 'work' for me, and I don't care one iota about you bleeding to death or not. That's the Government's responsibility! Not mine!

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2305 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:59:46 PM
There are govt. smoking bans to stop the infringement upon other people's health.

The is an argument for gun-free zones, if anything. Smoking bans only apply to areas, not populations.

Our constitution stands for the rights of all humans

Only US citizens.

Govt. is there to protect those rights.

I agree; government should protect your rights from being infringed upon. For instance, it should be illegal for someone to shoot you (and it is).

Govt. is supposed to be one to stop against those multiple attackers.

How? We cannot afford having police at every corner. Thus, we should enable citizens to protect themselves.

You suggest that a gun is an unfair advantage. I suggest that a gun is a fair equalizer because unfair advantages exist naturally. The people who stand to benefit most are those with natural disadvantages.

MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:55:36 PM
"Why on Earth is he muddy-ing up the debate with facts?~!"

Lol. A late happy new year to you all..

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21845 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:54:59 PM
If confronted with a situation, most people would give up their property before their life, not the other way around.

@klaxor: You've got it backwards:
If YOU chose to take MY property?
Then YOUR life is worth less than MY property.
The <criminal> is the one saying "life is worth less than money" because he RISKS his own life & liberty to steal someone else's money.
Get it?

I can defend my home for 25 years and not one single person will be harmed!
OR I can spend 25 years stealing stuff from other people... how many hundreds are thus harmed by my lifestyle choice then, eh?

MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:52:30 PM
ROFL . Oh my word..must be 17 or 18 years ago. Viglen Pentium 1 laptop specced to the hilt. Costing.. several thousand pounds!! Hosted an oracle database (ran Doom more importantly). Worked for 20 minutes before overheating.

Don't save money on taxi's walking from work to the B&B carrying three grands worth of laptop was the lesson *I* learnt.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2305 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:48:41 PM
@klaxor

Life still trumps ownership. The fact that Americans would argue otherwise is a HUGE problem in our culture.

Individual liberty trumps lift. The fact that Americans would argue otherwise is a HUGE problem in our culture.

but the idea that property equals Life is wrong

I agree, though property is equivalent to a PIECE of your life (not the whole thing!). You trade hours (part of your total lifespan) for money. You then trade that money for property. Therefore, one must conclude that life is traded for property. Quite literally, you give part of your life for property.

If confronted with a situation, most people would give up their property before their life, not the other way around.

Obviously. Your property is a fraction of your total life. Therefore, giving up your property would be significantly less than your entire life.

auburnjunky
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 9564 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:43:40 PM
Why on Earth is he muddy-ing up the debate with facts?~!

klaxor
Male, 18-29, Western US
 647 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:40:38 PM
There are govt. smoking bans to stop the infringement upon other people's health.

Cars cause pollution that damage our lungs, but they are not illegal.

These are societal decisions on both ends of the spectrum.

Our constitution stands for the rights of all humans. Just b/c slavery was the "American way", doesn't justify it. Govt. is there to protect those rights. Govt. is supposed to be one to stop against those multiple attackers. Sadly, that doesn't happen, So we have the right to protect ourselves. But if one attacker has a gun, then you're kind of screwed either way. Certain gun laws, not abolishment, would try to ensure that the criminal isn't the one with the gun, at least for a higher percentage of the time.

klaxor
Male, 18-29, Western US
 647 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:30:51 PM
Then it's the Pursuit of Property that is protected. Life still trumps ownership. The fact that Americans would argue otherwise is a HUGE problem in our culture.

You do have a right to protect your property, but the idea that property equals Life is wrong. And its also a decision that most people would instinctively know. If confronted with a situation, most people would give up their property before their life, not the other way around.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2305 Posts
Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:29:25 PM
@klaxor

It's Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Jefferson made a choice to take out Property.

Hence why I said "the American way" and not "the Constitutional way".

Similar decisions are made every day, from medication, to transport, down to smoking.

Indeed, the difference, of course, is that these are all choices. As such, your liberty is not being infringed upon. You do not have a choice if you are being robbed.

I am personally more preoccupied with the guy who was shot than the guy who lost his tv.

Personally, I would rather just be able to defend myself. Even in a utopian gun-free world, we forget that we are all inherently unequal. For instance, I am a 6'2" and 200lbs in good shape. Even so, I cannot hope to defend myself against multiple attackers. With a firearm, I have the capacity to protect myself; without, I do not.

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