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Man Who Shot 4 Firefighters Leaves Suicide Note

Hits: 10750 | Rating: (1.9) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: fancylad
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
DromEd
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 1559 Posts
Saturday, December 29, 2012 7:45:25 AM


HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 2:07:05 PM
@jinxjinx34

I should also clarify that I'm not one of these NRA morons. I do not think we should arm all teachers, because that is just as bad as trying to disarm all teachers. As for posting guards in all schools, with what money?

However, since we won't ever ban all guns, I don't think that we will ever abolish mass shootings; the best we can hope to do is limit their devastation. Therefore, I think it should be the right of all citizens to be capable of defending themselves. If a citizen, teacher, professor, etc. is properly trained and licensed (according to their state legislation... dead horse yet?), I think they should be allowed to carry a firearm without limitation.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 2:01:11 PM
@jinxjinx34

I agree with you that something most likely needs to be changed; I think I'm one of the extremely few pro-gun advocates willing to admit that there is a problem right now.

My problem is, I don't know what the solution is. Most of the propositions I've heard don't make any sense. An assault weapons ban? I could kill or injure far more people while sitting in a tower with a Model 700 (bolt-action) than going into a theatre with an AR-15.

Then again, I think there's merit to the argument for registering, licensing, educating, and testing. Afterall, with automobiles, we must title and register the vehicle; also, we need to demonstrate proficiency and physiological ability to get licensed.

I don't personally consider these restrictions to violate the Second Amendment. I would only recommend that this be done by the states or by a state conglomerate.

jinxjinx34
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 171 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 1:43:59 PM
@HumanAction, Point taken. I agree with you in the shortcomings in the system, I intended to convey that in my post. Sorry for not being more clear. And again, this is so multifaceted as an issue it is really difficult to table. I, maybe not so simply, posit, that we need to treat firearms with the respect they deserve. This is not being done collectively by the community. The community needs to be held responsible. Someone needs to be accountable for holding them responsible. Any responsible gun owners should be DEMANDING that other gun owners be educated and be held INDIVIDUALLY responsible for their actions so that this ceases to be an issue. We have identified that there is in fact an issue. Do we solve this with more guns or better gun owners? I think the choice is clear.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 1:11:38 PM
@jinxjinx34

You are mistaken though in your interpretation of the Bill of Rights. The bill is a list of LEGAL rights, not Natural/Inalienable rights.

I don't think there is a difference between the two. In either case, for something to be a "right", it needs to be stated by and enforced by a body with such power. In this context, I think legal and inalienable are interchangable.

Regarding the three branches, they are all part of the federal government. Therefore, they all act on behalf of the federal government. While the intention of the House and Senate is to represent the states, they represent the states in the federal government.

The problem with this method is that it is democratic and not republican. The result is a "winner takes all" scheme in which the masses instill their desires on all others. Within a republic, this is less so.

jinxjinx34
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 171 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 12:44:50 PM
@HumanAction, You are correct, the prescribed process for reform would need to take place. I am not one for trampling on the system. I do believe in our constitution. You are mistaken though in your interpretation of the Bill of Rights. The bill is a list of LEGAL rights, not Natural/Inalienable rights. These are matters of legislative, executive, and judicial branches, which powers are vested by the U.S. Constitution in the Congress. These are the branches which make the federal government. The House of Representatives and the Senate act on behalf the the individual states in legislation. This is so the fed cannot act on it's own. This is obviously not a perfect system because it does allow statistically unpopular laws to come to fruition. But, it is the system we are working with and it is abused equally by politicians in many situations. There is no popular vote or options by states, our elected representatives in the House and Senate carry the vote for their respective states.

McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 13285 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 11:48:55 AM
[quote"> did not say germany won the war...even though if the allies teamed up with them the world would have far less problems today[/quote">



Told you he was a Frenchie! France had alot of nazi supporters so much so they had their own SS division amongst many other ones.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 11:43:20 AM
@pompousass7

Those damn arrogant, greedy, war-mongering, cheeseburger-eating, backwards, hill billy, gun-toting, football-watching, tea-baggers! Am I right???

Haha - this is how you sound to me.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 11:38:03 AM
@pompousass7

Have you forgotten that our debate is regarding whether or not the US won these wars? You seem to think that economic state decades or centuries later has something to do with the winner at that time.

i did not say germany won the war...even though if the allies teamed up with them the world would have far less problems today

Are you seriously suggesting that, had the Nazi regime been allowed to further their plans, the world would be a better place? Really?

Also, the Allies, of which the US was a part, won the war. Therefore, the US was one of the winners of the war. Therefore, the US won the war. So did, Canada, Australia, France, England, China, Russia, etc.

The Persian Gulf War was fought to repel Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. The end result was the repulsion of Iraqi forces from Kuwait. That's a win in my book.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 11:32:13 AM
@jinxjinx34

Regarding the Constitutionality of authority in the matter, I disagree. The Bill of Rights merely ensures that some rights are inalienable.

Simply because the Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms does not give the authority to regulate arms to the federal government. In fact, the Tenth Amendment purposefully implys that after the Consitution, the States have the most authority to create legislation.

Now, regarding amendments, you are correct. I certainly oppose any such proposition, but, as long as we take the proper road and repeal the amendment, then I would change my opinion on the matter.

I'm trying to draw a fine line between what I deem acceptable and what I deem "moral". For example, I do not think a federal income tax is "moral"; however, it was created and ratified via the proper routes. Therefore, I find it to be acceptable.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 11:19:51 AM
@jinxjinx34

No worries - I'm always willing to have a reasonable debate.

Now, I agree that any change that would be effective would need to be federal, or at very least would need to be a pact among many states. However, I see the former as a forceful takeover and the latter as a willing participation. Of course, the distinction to some is merely a nuance.

I think a good example is Obamacare. About half of the states don't want to participate while the other half do. Unfortunately, because it was dictated at the federal level, we (as in the states) must all partipate - many against our will. I don't understand why we decide to go this route rather than have the pro-healthcare states create a state-level or multi-state union.

In this way, if the system becomes corrupt, states have the option to leave. As of now, if Obamacare is a complete failure, we are all stuck with it.

pompousass7
Male, 40-49, Canada
 261 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 11:16:54 AM
oh and by the way everyone....happy new year.....will continue our discussion when back in the office next week

pompousass7
Male, 40-49, Canada
 261 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 11:14:57 AM
human..also take note on how all of the countries that have been defeated have better economies and social networks than the u.s. so i want to thank you on behalf of the world for allowing us to focus on economic development, health and social issues and education while you keep spending money on development of better methods of destruction...like the pivotal zombie bullets you guys buy in case of a zombie apocolypse...yes i know outward seemingly normal americans that have hundreds of rounds...just in case

pompousass7
Male, 40-49, Canada
 261 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 11:09:18 AM
sorry..you are right re: persian...of course that war was not won by anyone...thats why you guys had to go back to kill saddam as we (as a world)did not do it to completion the first time which we should have...oh...who stopped us from finishing and why??? right...must have had nothing to do with an agenda for the future of haliburton and the likes that make all of your leaders rich

pompousass7
Male, 40-49, Canada
 261 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 11:05:40 AM
human...i did not say germany won the war...even though if the allies teamed up with them the world would have far less problems today
but most importantly you perhaps unknowingly conceded it was all of the allies not the u.s. that won WW2 which you previously staed was one of the wars the u.s. won..so well done..we are learning here

pompousass7
Male, 40-49, Canada
 261 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 11:03:10 AM
jinx....if you guys could even find us on a map LOL

Finker
Male, 40-49, Europe
 506 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 10:59:41 AM
@McGovern1981, I did say I was joking although I think the majority were british - still think that means it was largely the british that won the war of independence if you look at where they came from. (I'll admit the government lost but the British people won - forerunners of the second ammendment n all that)

jinxjinx34
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 171 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 10:16:12 AM
O.K. I will be the one to say it. @pompousass7, even if we all conceded to your convoluted logic, America could kick Canada's ass with one hand tied behind it's back. lol.

jinxjinx34
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 171 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 9:51:26 AM
@HumanAction- First, thank you for keeping this conversation academic and not knee-jerk and ad-hominem. Unfortunately, for any real reform to take place, it would have to happen across the board at the federal level. Morality is simply the intention. The argument from authority, weather it is from the state or fed is irrelevant as long as the intentions are "moral". On top of that, it is the fed that has constitutionality over this issue. This comes from the same constitution you cite that gives you the right to "bear arms". The bill of rights was designed to be amended as times change, to hide behind an amendment blindly as something unchangeable despite the overwhelming evidence of the necessity is foolish. We have been stymied as a society for such parochial thinking. If the gun owning community had been more responsible, this would not be an issue and there would be no need for oversight. Funny cartoon btw.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 9:25:51 AM
human...germany has one of the most "successful" economies in the world

So you correlate a war that happened 70 years ago and the current economy of Germany and see this as evidence that Germany won WWII?

In a previous statement you assumed that the Japanese economy is doing well. Let's assume that to be true and utilize the logic you've displayed.

By your logic, Japan won WWII because, despite losing horribly and conceding victory to the allies, they have a good economy. I hope this helps you to realize the faults in your logic.

By the way, the Japanese economic situation is not one to envy. Just saying.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 9:21:36 AM
@pompousass7

OK - let's do this again (the whole proving you wrong thing).

So you claim that, because Britain was engaged with other forces, the US did not legitimately win the Revolutionary War. With this logic, the Germans won WWII because they were engaged on multiple fronts. See how silly you look?

The War of 1812 was declared by the US. The reasons were impedement and trasgressions by Britain, such a the Chesapeake affair and British support for Indian raids. The outcome of the war accomplished all of the US goals. Thus, it was a win.

No US jobs were lost as a result of the Mexican-American war. Quite contrary, much land was gained that continues to contribute to the US economy today.

As for WWII, conspiracy theory much?

Lastly, Saddam was not killed during the Persian Gulf War. In fact, he remained the leader of Iraq for the following decade. Your history is off.

pompousass7
Male, 40-49, Canada
 261 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 9:01:47 AM
human...germany has one of the most "successful" economies in the world

pompousass7
Male, 40-49, Canada
 261 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 9:00:11 AM
human...you only "won" revolutionary war because of the help of dutch,french and spanish..not on your own..end of story
1812...you guys started it dumba$$ ever here of your slogan 54 or war...probably not in your textbooks...next
mexican war...30-40000 jobs lost..yup you won
WW2 you know they knew japan was coming to pearl harbor and wanted to get in the war..hence why they let it happen..ever wonder why no aircraft carriers were there??? oh sorry conspiracy again..thinking u.s. makes all their money by being at war. oh right...look at who made money developing nukes...hmmmmm
and yes persian gulf war ended but you did not win ..yet again..oh killing sadam..big deal..killed a person..not the movement

McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 13285 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 8:53:05 AM
mcgovern..the u.s. brings allies and then tries to pretend they did it all themselves..or more often..lets the allies do all of the work and then comes in at the end to pretend they did all the work.

Oh ya sound about right if it's opposite day! Example the Gulf war "U.S. troops represented 73% of the Coalition’s 956,600 troops in Iraq."-Wiki. Now who's see thing one sided again?

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Friday, December 28, 2012 8:48:01 AM
by the greed of a prior republican government

Ah... Now I get it. You're one of "those" people, eh?

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