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Understanding The Fiscal Cliff

Hits: 6024 | Rating: (2.6) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 1 2 3    Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10228 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 3:06:52 PM
Most of the things on that list have become basics and have seriously come down in price since they were a luxury


...and that's a bad thing WHY?

Seriously, a refrigerator


Huh? Don't people need to keep their food preserved?

Especially when they probably control the incomes of those people because they are employees?


Without employees their ability to make money is diminished. On top of which I not buying this notion that the rich are colluding with each other to make the poor poorer, (that is unless they collude with govt to pass more laws to stomp out competition).

I just talked to a friend of mine who works for a huge company and he told me he hasn't gotten more than a 1% raise in years yet gets more and more duties heaped on him.


Anecdotal

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:55:21 PM
@Cajun247 So you're ok that the 1%'s income is increasing WAY faster than anyone else's? Especially when they probably control the incomes of those people because they are employees? I just talked to a friend of mine who works for a huge company and he told me he hasn't gotten more than a 1% raise in years yet gets more and more duties heaped on him. Is that what you want when you graduate?

"Yet they can afford more than they could 50 years ago."

Most of the things on that list have become basics and have seriously come down in price since they were a luxury. Seriously, a refrigerator? Poor people shouldn't buy a used XBox at a pawn shop or garage sale to entertain their kids? I'm not saying people don't buy things they can't afford but they aren't buying car elevators.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10228 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:55:17 PM
So while real income for the lowest rung have remained flat, their ability to purchase goods has increased steadily.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10228 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:53:09 PM
A better chart

AntEconomist
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 254 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:48:07 PM
lauriloo

"I could take that to mean that the 1% have better deductions and loopholes because the lower you make the divisor in your calculation, the higher your percentage gets."

You don't understand the definitions. Loopholes and deductions have no effect on adjusted gross income. They only affect the taxes owed.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10228 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:48:02 PM
[quote">Income chart adjusted for inflation[/quote">

US GDP PPP per Capita

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:42:51 PM
"Take the total money each income group paid to the government and divide by each income group's adjusted gross income."

I could take that to mean that the 1% have better deductions and loopholes because the lower you make the divisor in your calculation, the higher your percentage gets.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10228 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:42:40 PM
Notice the difference in slopes between the rich getting richer and the regular people not?


I don't see a problem here, YOU said that poor peoples' income HASN'T kept up inflation. Yet they can afford more than they could 50 years ago. Additionally, I don't see any reason to complain about the rich-poor gap when EVERYONES' standard of living is going up.

AntEconomist
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 254 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:40:51 PM
@lauriloo: If you apply the same analysis used to compare incomes to people's ages, you find the following (I'm not making this up): In 2000, the youngest 20% of Americans were 7.1 years old. By 2010, the youngest 20% of Americans were 6.9 years old. Conclusion: The young got younger.

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:40:00 PM
Income chart adjusted for inflation

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:38:57 PM
"84% of people below poverty line have air conditioning"

Wow, air conditioning, what a luxury. Most poor people rent. Are they supposed to sell the landlord's stuff? When I was laid off from an engineering job for a year, I had a townhouse I couldn't sell that took $1,000/mo out of my pocket. I had some great stuff that I bought when I still had a job but wasn't worth trying to sell after I lost a job. So, by appearances I had great stuff but I was basically bankrupt.

This is what I'm talking about. Notice the difference in slopes between the rich getting richer and the regular people not?

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10228 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:16:21 PM
Excuse me that should say "78% of poor households"

fix'd

kilroy5555
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 501 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:08:58 PM
In reality, the concept of "fairness" in taxation as it is being used today is not related in any way to creating a positive economic environment. It is all class warfare demogoguery designed to give Democrats a political edge. The same rhertoric has been used towards exactly this end for more than a century.

Of course, the real problem is that class warfare works because it sounds so good. After all, it's about fairness (never mind exactly what that means), and you don't make as much money as those selfish nasty rich people. And all we're doing is asking them to pay such a teeny tiny bit more! Well, you know that you can count on the Democrats to be on your side... the GOP are showing their true colors once again siding with the wealthy and against the little guy.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10228 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:08:56 PM
[quote">the years while the average american's income hasn't kept up with inflation[/quote">

84% of people below poverty line have air conditioning

AntEconomist
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 254 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 1:56:46 PM
@lauriloo: If you have the report, the figures are in Summary Table 1. Yes taxes are complex. The figures I reported are not. Take the total money each income group paid to the government and divide by each income group's adjusted gross income.

kilroy5555
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 501 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 1:54:51 PM
Well that about sums up all the Democrat talking points.

Too bad we can't replicate the Internet revolution to help bring back the economy to what it was during the Clinton years. Maybe it would help if we brought our spending levels down to Clinton levels it would help too.

And how about making sure that we work to set up a globally competitive and stable business-friendly environment instead of chasing some vague, undefined concept of "fair" taxation. That will help ensure that corporations reinvest in the United States and ultimately lead to a rise in wages for all. Will the concept that the wealthy aren't paying enough stop when rates go up to 40%? For my money, we'll start hearing how 40% isn't enough before too long... after all tax rates were once 90% for the wealthy.

While we're at it, maybe we can also stop printing money, which will help not cause the inflation that the average working person's wages lag behind.

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 1:48:00 PM
I think the lesson learned is you never CUT taxes because people don't see a temporary tax cut as a gift. They see the ending of the temporary cut as a punishment. This is a basic tenant of freelancing. Don't ever give a client a break on your rate for one project because they will never accept your normal rate ever again.

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 1:32:20 PM
@AntEconomist I can't find where in the report your numbers come from and what they really represent. Taxes are very complicated between income tax, payroll tax, etc. so it's hard to figure out what figures are correct, considering rich people don't pay payroll taxes like normal people do and there are differences in how much gets taken out for SS and Medicaid at higher income levels.

At any rate, it's a fact that upper-income people's wealth has skyrocketed over the years while the average american's income hasn't kept up with inflation. Their flat income, btw, is controlled by their upper-income employers. SO, if anyone is going to be asked to contribute a little more, should it be the people barely getting by, who pump any money they have back into the economy immediately or those who have more money than they really need so they send it to a pile in the Caymans?

markust123
Male, 40-49, Western US
 3784 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 1:03:40 PM
I was a little concerned when he said to cut funding to Agribusiness. I'm sure there is some waste that can be cut but it is very important to subsidize farms when needed. Like the ones that are going under because of the drought.

onoffonoffon
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2095 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:59:42 AM
Still can't get my head around how people want to give and irresponsible organization more money. Oh btw maybe corporations don't pay enough taxes? If a corporations can afford a lobbyist maybe they should pay more taxes?

DromEd
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 1545 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:36:27 AM
The number one expenditure in the federal budget are entitlements but Reich says we can't cut any of that. And you libs say conservatives won't reach across the isle.

Guess what. We could cut defense spending by 100 percent and enact the tax increases the left propose and we still couldn't balance the budget.

The only way out is to grow the economy.

Mikeoxsbiggg
Male, 30-39, Canada
 1150 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 10:59:43 AM
I'm sure the Republicans on here will agree with this. lol Good luck with that.

hauswyfe
Female, 30-39, Southern US
 275 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 10:53:29 AM
"Hold your ground" my left foot. Both sides holding their ground is what got us into this mess in the first place! What we need is a real compromise. Reform entitlements and increase taxes on the 1%

AntEconomist
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 254 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 10:44:46 AM
Before people start spouting nonsense, the following is from the Congressional Budget Office's July 2012 report (available online). It includes all taxes paid to the federal government:

Top 1% pay an average tax rate of 28%
Middle class pay an average tax rate of 14%
Poorest pay an average rate of 5%

Commence ad homina and non-sequiturs.

kitteh9lives
Female, 70 & Over, Eastern US
 1402 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 10:20:51 AM
Link: Understanding The Fiscal Cliff [Rate Link] - Robert Reich lays out the Fiscal Cliff. Is this the best way out of this forced showdown in Congress?

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