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Understanding The Fiscal Cliff

Hits: 6032 | Rating: (2.6) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 1 2 3 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2228 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:47:54 PM
@lauriloo- Listen, if this is an economic issue for you, tax takes revenue from buyers and sellers and creates dead-weight loss.




If your just advocating a humanitarian stance of ending poverty, then honestly, donate your money to people in Liberia. Even if you made minimum wage you'd still be in the top 12% richest people on earth, in Liberia about 85% of the population lives below $1 a day that's poorer than 91% of people. In the civilized society you mentioned, don't these people come first?
The reason I say that is right now, the rich are the biggest donors to places like Liberia because of many of those "tax loopholes" you mentioned. Usually contributing the bulk majority of the $23,530,000,000.00 the US donates every 5 years.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:01:42 PM
I don't value it less.

Yes you do. You support a bracketed system in which people who make more money pay a higher percentage of the income within that bracket to taxes. This is the definition of a progressive tax.
All people's money is valued the same.

No, it is not. Let us pretend that I make $1m this year and pay an effective tax rate of 25%. You, on the other hand, make $100k and pay an effective tax rate of 15%. NOTE: These are arbitrary numbers.

This means that, each dollar I make has an effective value of only $0.75 while each dollar you make has an effective value of $0.85. Quite literally, each dollar you earn is worth more than the dollar that I earn in this scenario.

you say the very rich should keep their money

I don't recall saying this... There is this thing called charity. Are you familiar with it or should I explain?

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10349 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:58:35 AM
It's even in the bible




OH DON'T GRUBBLE!

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10349 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:56:31 AM
valuable work for society than a guy who sits behind a desk making multi-millions as a CEO


Yet CEOs run companies that services thousands, if not millions of customers across the nation and the globe. Helping more people than one nurse ever could.

saying when you say the very rich should keep their money


Money doesn't sit on a pile and stays there, even rich people's money is being loaned out to provide capital for many positive purposes.

people with the ability to help are expected to help in a civilized society


Carnegie and Rockefeller donated big time to charity.
Bill and Melinda gates foundation
Koch family foundation
Late Steve Jobs Project Red program
Ronald McDonald House Charities
Wendy's has charities
Papa John's made a donation to zoo in Louisville, KY

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:55:13 AM
Wow, HumanAction- you've really bought into the GOP talking points

I find these statements to be an attempt to dismiss claims that cannot be disproven. Do you not have an intelligent way to disagree with me or are you only limited to random attempts at dismissal?
are you parroting Grover Norquist, Chris Christie or just Fox News in general?

Dismissal it is.

What's interesting is your belief that simply doubling down on the current failing system will achieve your goals. A progressive tax does not, and will not force the rich to pay more. You see, as long as there are deductions, a bracket, credits, etc, people will hire accountants to (legally) circumvent taxes. Who out there can afford accountants? The wealthy.

You're system benefits the wealthy and hurts the poor and middle-class. Only a simplified flat-rate tax makes sense.

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:45:49 AM
"Please, explain to me how each dollar she earned by putting forth extra effort should be worth less than someone with the same base salary who only works forty hours a week. "

I don't value it less. All people's money is valued the same. I would say the money your mother earned as a nurse took more effort and is more valuable work for society than a guy who sits behind a desk making multi-millions as a CEO but that's the luck of the draw, I suppose. But what are you really saying when you say the very rich should keep their money, money they don't need to live a very happy comfortable life, and the lower classes with very little should do with even less to fix the debt? In an ideal situation, everyone would keep what they earned and fully enjoy all the benefits but in the real world, with real problems, people with the ability to help are expected to help in a civilized society. It's even in the bible.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10349 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:41:11 AM
Buffet says tax rates have no bearing on his level of investment in companies


Fallacy of composition. May not affect him as much, same can't be said for Bill Gates. He's also fooling himself if he believes anyone's going to invest with a top marginal rate of 90%.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10349 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:36:47 AM
Funny how we aren't awash in jobs now while the tax cuts are still here.


Yes because the federal govt wrecked the economy by handing out housing loans to people who couldn't afford them.

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:27:20 AM
Wow, HumanAction- you've really bought into the GOP talking points. The whole "everyone envies the rich and that's the only reason we want more from them" is classic. We're all trying to steal their money, waaaaa.

When you say "write a check" are you parroting Grover Norquist, Chris Christie or just Fox News in general? The GOP needs to mock Buffet because he puts a huge dent in the notion that taxing rich people a little more (in reality, letting the Bush tax vacation end) will hurt the "job creators". Buffet says tax rates have no bearing on his level of investment in companies. SHOCKING. Funny how we aren't awash in jobs now while the tax cuts are still here.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:09:27 AM
Single mothers are working two or more jobs to feed and house their kids

Let's turn your logic upside down with real life experience.

I was raised by a single mother; she has six children in total. As a nurse, her base salary was nothing spectacular. However, she worked a ton of overtime, and therefore, had a relatively high total income every year.

Please, explain to me how each dollar she earned by putting forth extra effort should be worth less than someone with the same base salary who only works forty hours a week.

For additional information, we never accepted any sort of assistance. We didn't have video game systems or air conditioning either. You're appeal to sympathy/pity means nothing to me; it does not sway my opinion of right and wrong.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 10:34:44 AM
Envy - A feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.

Romney installed a car elevator in (one of) his homes. His kind can afford car elevators.

The reference to "his kind" is purposefully negative and shows resent. The cause of your resentment towards this person is the property that he possesses - as inferred from your words.

Yep, envy.


Warren Buffet gets it, why can't you?

Oh does he, now? Let's have a hypothetical situation. Let us suggest that some billionaire decides to write a one-billion dollar check out of the blue to the IRS. Do you suppose the IRS would accept it? Surely they would.

If Warren Buffet "gets it", such as you suppose, why does he not simply write a check? Yet here we are.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10349 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:58:08 AM
Here's British treasury's report on the budget. How are any of these budget cuts "severe"?

lauriloo
Female, 40-49, Midwest US
 1805 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:56:58 AM
"Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the deadly sin, envy."

Nope, not envy. An illustration of the ability of rich people to contribute more to the society that has made them so rich. Single mothers are working two or more jobs to feed and house their kids (not to "keep up with the Joneses") yet the GOP thinks asking people who have the money to burn on silly, megadollar luxuries can't handle a couple more percent in taxes. The taxes they paid during the Clinton years and somehow they were still able to make money hand over fist despite that awful tax burden (/sarcasm). Warren Buffet gets it, why can't you?

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10349 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:51:33 AM
because severe austerity measures have helped to cripple their economies




THIS is severe?

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5745 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:34:33 AM
It's NOT going to change a thing. Deficit spending HAS TO stop!

Which is why I said Reich isn't promoting compromise. I've always held that tax increases with spending cuts are better than either on their own. As to the military, they do R&D, this is true. However it's not like they do R&D in every aspect of technology, and I think your assessment of which things get cut first in the military may be incorrect. In any event I disagree that they are mutually inclusive.

Sooner or later, it will, just like Europe

Europe is a double-edged sword though, because severe austerity measures have helped to cripple their economies. So promoting austerity isn't likely the best course of action.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26636 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:20:19 AM
Raising Taxes And Still Defecit Spending?
It's NOT going to change a thing. Deficit spending HAS TO stop! Sooner or later, it will, just like Europe: no one will lend you any more money if they know you're going to default...

Obama is all about "redistributing the wealth" eh? From YOU to HIS friends...

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26636 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:10:13 AM
@patchy: Liberals & hippie think all the military does is build tanks and bombers and stuff. But they also fund lots of research, spend TONS on support & supply and employ millions of people.
"Cut the military" and what gets chopped? Research, then support & supply, then the number of soldiers. (unemployment all around!) idk if the military is "the best" way to fund such research, but I know that 6 & 7 are so tightly linked you cannot cut one without also cutting the other, and vice-versa.

Yes, Reagan spent too much, it's true! The situation was desperate, 20% intrest with hyper-inflation = ruin! So the IDEA was to spend, then later PAY IT BACK. Something Bush I and Clinton forgot to do... Bush II had wars to fight, Obama? LOLZ! Well, he's "redistributing the wealth" isn't he?

@HumanAction: You've nailed it! Greed & envy = socialism.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 7:29:08 AM
His kind can afford car elevators.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the deadly sin, envy.

At this point, it is clear that your argument has devolved to a state of "well HE can afford it but I can't so HE's evil!" Stop trying to "keep up with the Joneses" and your life will become much more rewarding.

Also, if you are poor, you should not buy an Xbox. If your income can only satisfy your basic needs, then you should only purchase your basic needs. I am almost 24; when I graduated from college (I graduated 3 years ago), I did not enjoy the economic stability I have created since. As such, I bought no furniture, did not take vacations, and bought only the cheapest raw foods I could get. This is not called austerity or hardship, as I still had food, water, clothing, and the necessities; this is called common sense.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5745 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 7:24:38 AM
What Reich is promoting here, though, isn't compromise. I don't exactly agree with all of his points.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5745 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 7:21:45 AM
#6 and #7 are mutually INCLUSIVE! You cannot do ONE without also doing THE OTHER.

How do you rationalize that one? So you can't spend money into R&D or education without cutting military spending etc.? Are you saying the only place to get money for education is taking it from the military or corporations?

That's because IT ISN'T A GODDAMNED GIFT!!! It's their money to start with!

Oh, this again. Social contract, the terms of it aren't static. Also they didn't make that money so they're really only borrowing it. Typical repub attitude: Government doesn't represent or look after people, it's always an antagonistic relationship.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5745 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 7:13:17 AM
Reductio ad absurdium

Well, it wasn't really; it was just sarcasm.

@5cats: You're also forgetting that when saint Reagan cut taxes and raised revenue he also skyrocketed the debt. And you think it's libs who want something without paying for it...

...so, let's raise taxes on employers. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Ah, yes, because cutting them has created so many jobs you don't know what to do with them all.

papajon0s1
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 579 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 6:39:51 AM
We're screwed no matter what if the libs get their way. WIth the military gutted who think that won't embolden the radical islamists to attack us? I'll predict we're going to see another 9/11 before BO is finally (Thank God!) not our president anymore.

Modwain
Male, 30-39, Europe
 304 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:04:29 AM
whoohoo lets increase teh polarisation by making this even more a bout democrats and republicans..
hell yeah, there is no us, there is a we and them..

lets go one further, suply everyone with guns and lets styop listening to people that dont share our vieuwpoints, but lets not demonize em, just kill em and get rid of their vieuw point all together.


i know, i know, this is to seriuos to be sarcastic about.. I just love the fact that no one seems to have any answer that isnt based on screwing the other half over. Or even worse, if it seems that someone does, lets make him sound foolish... owell, lets not be social about it.


richanddead
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 2228 Posts
Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:00:59 AM
I've been becoming more and more nihilistic every time I hear these kinds of points. Economics is math, you can't run from it. If you spend more than you produce, you go broke. This guy wants to go over the cliff and take everyone else with him including Europe. This philosophy of equal outcomes instead of equal opportunity, generalized terms like fairness forcing defined quantitative tax hikes, rich people being evil because they have more money than you do, all we need now is some Bolshevists. Honestly, what good are safety-nets when they are tied to the noose around your neck. The slogan, "Everyone should own a home" and causing a housing bubble leading to a world recession, wasn't enough of a message. Maybe some grapes of wrath is just the medicine we need, sorry rest of world. Lemmings don't change direction they just reach the cliff.

auburnjunky
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 10184 Posts
Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:27:03 PM
Jobs come first, so disregard everything that was said in the first 7 points!

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