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Carl Sagan On The Library Of Alexandria & Hypa

Hits: 9428 | Rating: (3.3) | Category: Arts & Literature | Added by: peakingo
Page: 1 2 3 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 5:00:05 PM
mesovertex has a point, pure philosophy has provided more wrongs than rights. Gottlob Frege even studied how to provide more accuracy to philosophy through mathematical logical inferences. That's even a field of its own nowadays (aka analytic philosophy)

mesovortex
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 406 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:45:22 PM
"jendrian: Most of the greatest philosophers ever, were not scientists and I can give you many examples. "

CrakrJak - and most of the philosophers have been dead wrong. If you studied philosophy, you would know this.

mesovortex
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 406 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:44:22 PM
"I see no sense arguing with someone that has no grasp of proper grammar, you've proved that your IQ is sub-moronic just by your lack of syntax."

You just used a comma splice. Your position against evolution and most science is ideological only. You aren't willing to change your mind, thus it's pointless to argue it with you.

If you're going to play grammar nazi, point the finger at yourself, first.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:38:51 PM
furthermore, what extra lesson is there in the jolly ol' fellow that isn't in what I described?

Doesn't that make them even more selfish? To think that every christmas they should be entitled to free stuff?

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:35:41 PM
So why is it that they can't love all of mankind a little? Wouldn't that negate your argument?

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:34:43 PM
haha sure, I'm sure none of your behaviour is influenced by the reward of heaven. Oh wait

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16155 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:31:18 PM
jendrian: Rewarding someone for them doing what you want is called Bribery. Only giving to those you love is not charity.

So you just taught them that anyone can be bribed and only give to those people you love, to not be charitable to strangers. Way to go, you're creating selfish brats that believe they can buy love and people.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:21:29 PM
Shoot away your examples, I will show you how they were scientists

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:21:08 PM
No, I've told them their parents love them so much they want to reward their good behaviour. And that when they love someone, they give without expecting retribution.

Is it really necessary to have fairy for that?

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16155 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:20:45 PM
jendrian: Most of the greatest philosophers ever, were not scientists and I can give you many examples.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16155 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:14:10 PM
jendrian: So you've just subtracted the lesson and joy of giving, without without wanting recognition for it, and taught them what? That mom and dad are buying their love and they grow up feeling entitled and become brats?

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:12:56 PM
I mean, does it really escape to you that the greatest philosophers mankind has ever produced have been scientists?

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:09:22 PM
I mean just because theology and politics are both part of 'philosophy' in general do you believe those two should be engaged with one another?

Yes. It's the reason there is a separation between church and state, because people have thought about the two in the same frame.

Are we living in the same planet?

Do you honestly think scientists never think of metaphysics and aesthetics? Who, of all other humans in the world, is better suited for it than those who devote their lives to the pursuit of knowledge?

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16155 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 4:04:53 PM
jendrian: The Ph in PhD may indeed have originated to mean philosophy, but then originally only the liberal arts had PhDs. But that doesn't signify that all scientists engage in philosophy.

Now if you mean that scientists engage in logic and problem solving, those are subsections of the general field of philosophy that also includes aesthetics, epistemology, metaphysics, morality and politics.

I mean just because theology and politics are both part of 'philosophy' in general do you believe those two should be engaged with one another?

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 3:43:41 PM
and yes, I've broken fantasies down to children, and it never ceases to amaze me how much happier they are to know how stuff actually works. But maybe it's just in how I explain it.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 3:42:08 PM
@CrakrJak: The Ph in PhD stands for Philosophy. And every person who engages in inferences and plays with logic is doing philosophy. So yeah, all scientists engage in philosophy.

Schools also teach children them to prejudice against nazis and greek mythology.

It seems to me that the ones who can't have the cake and eat it too are religious people: if you want to be free to practice your religion, you can't force it on other people. If you want to use a cellphone and a computer, you have to accept that science is correct, whether it goes against your instruction book or not.

If you want a society that is based on truth, you can't hang on to unfounded beliefs that have been disproven several times.

Science on the other hand, as a self-adjusting mechanism, can, and often does, makes the cake, cuts it, and eats it. Because it knows exactly how.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16155 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 3:36:49 PM
jendrian: Schools do more than just 'disseminate knowledge', they teach kids how to learn, not just what to learn. If those kids are taught that religion is nothing more than a fantasy, then you've just prejudiced them against it for the rest of their lives. It's no different than teaching any other kind of prejudice, and it's wrong.

Did you crush your kids belief in Santa Claus, in the name of 'truth', too?

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16155 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 3:22:43 PM
jendrian: In actuality what PhD. Means is that you made a 'Doctorate' level study, completed coursework, and had your dissertation published. 'Philosophy' needn't be included to gain a PhD. The broader sense of the term 'philosophy' means 'Love of Wisdom'.

..every single scientist has ever done..


Not every scientist engages in philosophy or theology like you just claimed, that's both absurd and bloviated.

Why should knowledge of religion be out of the grasp of science?


Because atheists insist that religion not interfere with science, so it's only fair that science not interfere with religion. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 1:30:37 PM
As for your comment for Angilion... you mean to say that schools, the institution whose sole intention is to disseminate knowledge, tend to side with factual knowledge and shun unproven hearsay?

You don't say, how evil of them to only tell children things we know are factually true.

My offer stands, I can educate you on why your disbelief in evolution is unfounded.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 1:29:05 PM
@CrakrJak: you understand what the term PhD means right? Philosophy Doctorate. It means you have attained a level where you can teach (doctrine <- latin) a love for knowledge (philos = love, sophia = knowledge).

There is absolutely nothing wrong in scientists entering the realm of philosophy and theology, as every single scientist has ever done in his/her lifetime. In fact, without philosophy, science doesn't progress, because we use it in the scientific method, in inference, and in all other areas of science.

There is no such thing as a separation between philosophy and science. I can attest for that first hand.

And in matters of religion well, is that not only abstract thoughts as well? Why should knowledge of religion be out of the grasp of science?

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16155 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 11:58:08 AM
Angilion: Few if any scientists are trying to use science to prove the non-existence of your god.


Really? Atheists are doing this on a daily basis in our schools and colleges right now. Hell it's being done here on IAB on a semi-regular basis.

Science explains *how* things happen. It doesn't explain *why* they happen that way. If you want to say it's because your god set the universe up that way, that's up to you.


Finally, A rational argument I can agree with. My arguments against evolution are merely science based, I don't quote the bible when arguing against it, I keep them separate.

Unfortunately those arguing against God do not do the same and thus we get into discussions like this. Insisting that Christians not mix science and religion but not imposing the same restrictions on the atheists makes for a lopsided and unfair debate.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16155 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 11:39:29 AM
jendrian: When science starts delving into the realm of philosophy and religion it has jumped the proverbial shark. Unprovable conjecture is not what science should be about. Leave religion to the preachers and philosophy to the philosophers and perhaps Christians won't feel the need to delve into science in defense of their beliefs.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16155 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 11:32:03 AM
mesovortex: Your discussion are wrong because of (a) they do not have correct or even accurate science and (b) you argue based on an ideology.


I see no sense arguing with someone that has no grasp of proper grammar, you've proved that your IQ is sub-moronic just by your lack of syntax.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10542 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 10:49:53 AM


If, for example, you demand that everyone is conditioned to believe that lightning is a magic weapon thrown by your angry god and that everyone must give your clerics money and power to placate your god, then you are clashing with science.

If you say that you believe that your god created things in such a way that lightning can happen as a result of natural processes, then you are not clashing with science.

Science explains *how* things happen. It doesn't explain *why* they happen that way. If you want to say it's because your god set the universe up that way, that's up to you. It's a seperate thing from science. The most that a scientist would say in opposition is that your explanation is unnecessarily complicated and unsupported by any evidence.

And yes, *some* scientists are theists. But, unlike you, they understand what science is and they understand that they must keep science and religion seperate.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10542 Posts
Monday, November 19, 2012 10:46:30 AM
Few if any scientists are trying to use science to prove the non-existence of your god (or any other gods). That is purely your fantasy for the purpose of falsely portraying yourself and your fellow believers as victims in order to gain political power by doing so.

Science is, in essence, a method of finding reliable, rational, natural explanations of how the universe works. It clashes with religion only when religion demands people believe unreliable, irrational, supernatural explanations for how things work, explanations that stifle thought and prevent the technological progress we so desperately need.

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