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Perpetual Motion Machines Of The Past

Hits: 8797 | Rating: (3.2) | Category: Science | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 1 2 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Tuesday, September 04, 2012 9:57:27 AM
@Angilion: whatever man, you're the most annoying person to discuss anything with. Not because you're so knowledgeable of a subject, but because once you hang onto a position no amount of reasoning will move you. Unless you see a cat that's both dead and alive you won't believe in Schrodinger's idea will you?

@Jamie76: That's what I was trying to discuss, it's not impossible, it's just highly improbable, but circa 100 years ago, so was creating mass.

@insane_ai: Yes of course that would work but then we're just talking about efficiencies, which a lot of other machines are probably better at than Boyle's device (with a pump)

AvatarJohn
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 845 Posts
Tuesday, September 04, 2012 9:27:56 AM
Huh. Link didn't come through.

The Museum of Unworkable Devices

AvatarJohn
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 845 Posts
Tuesday, September 04, 2012 9:27:03 AM
insane_ai, the reason dams work is because they do not operate in a closed system. The water is continually replenished by the power of the sun. In a closed system, perpetual motion has been proven to be impossible. If you continually add energy to the system, then yes, you can have the system go on forever, but that's not perpetual motion -- that's just plain old normal physics in an open system.

Is any of this actually possible? Perhaps, but not in our universe. In our universe, conservation of energy is a provable reality, just as Angilion states. Could magic be real? Perhaps, but just not in our universe. Feel free to explore the possibility of other universes where the laws of physics are different, but here in universe A (AKA the Fighting Mongooses), leave the crazy at the door, please!

More info on all of these very fascinating, yet impossible machines: McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 12719 Posts
Tuesday, September 04, 2012 6:33:11 AM
Infinet energy is alread here people just open your eyes and look to the fart!!! Just harness the combustion of the the lit fart and look!! MY PROTOTYPE REACTOR vv

insane_ai
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 680 Posts
Tuesday, September 04, 2012 6:02:25 AM
@Jendrian:
I am not a physiscist but I think if you calibrated the machine to offer less resistance than gravity offers in 'pulling' energy, it may be possible to harness that energy.

Think about water falls used to generate power, this device basically creates its own continuous waterfall by manipulating gravity.

Even at a rate of 10%, with no waste (other than maybe work out machinery) it is worht an attempt to avoid exhausting finite fuel sources.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Tuesday, September 04, 2012 1:31:36 AM
You're so stubborn you're not even willing to touch the subject of the reasoning behind the idea.


The reasoning is that we don't currently have a theoretical explanation as to how conservation of energy works.

What we also don't have is any evidence that it doesn't. All available evidence shows that energy is conserved, and there's a lot of that evidence.

Granted, there's always some possibility that our understanding of anything is wrong. In that sense, whether or not we have a theoretical explanation of how something works is irrelevant - that explanation might be wrong.

So in that sense it's possible that humans might come up with some way to create energy from nothing. In that sense, it's also possible that humans might come up with some way of jumping off a cliff naked and flying by a magic spell. We don't have a theory of magic and we don't have any evidence that it's possible and we do have evidence that it isn't.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 11:46:57 PM
Do you expect me to show you an example where people are flapping their arms and floating in conditions where it is already established it's not going to happen?


Yes.

After all, it hasn't been tested everywhere on Earth, so you should "keep an open mind" about the possibility of it being possible somewhere on Earth in some unknown way.

jamie76
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2282 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 10:23:57 PM
perpetual motion is not hypothetical...it is impossible because the very concept violates the law of conservation. and no, we cannot "dream" about it because again, can't happen. Now someone is going to mention "space" and to that I say, stfu, we live on Earth.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 6:42:09 PM
But you know what, I don't even care anymore. I have better things to do than discuss high school physics with someone who obviously doesn't understand it.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 6:38:30 PM
Show me the evidence. Or don't.

Of what? Of course there isn't a perpetual motion machine, what I am telling you, and what's not getting through your head is that the possibility of a perpetual motion machine is non-zero, and I have explained to you why before, something that you never, ever cared to mention, I'm not even sure you even read it.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 6:36:49 PM
"Zealot" is a subjective term. Maybe it suits you, maybe it doesn't. I'm not sure and I haven't implied it.

Got any more untrue things to say?



The definition of zealot:
A person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals


What you said about me:
No, that's not all you're saying. It's just a trite soundbite from all sorts of believers - what it actually means is "Anyone who doesn't have the same faith I do is being unreasonable".


If that doesn't imply that you think I'm a believer trying to convince you of my zeal, then you must be new to the English language.

Got any more personal attacks to throw?

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 6:28:20 PM
@Angilion: Those people are floating in air on earth, what more evidence do you want? Do you expect me to show you an example where people are flapping their arms and floating in conditions where it is already established it's not going to happen?

You're so stubborn you're not even willing to touch the subject of the reasoning behind the idea. I have already explained to you, over, and over, and OVER AND OVER AND OVER again that I am not talking about magic, I am talking about the principle of conservation of energy, something we humans simply observe as true with no real reason to assume it could be otherwise.

What infuriates me is that you keep trying to twist the words: "keep an open mind" to mean whatever the f*ck you want it to mean, regardless of me explaining what I meant as succinctly as possible.

The fact that you keep arguing about the definition of what "keep an open mind" is, just shows how closed your mind is.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 5:49:04 PM
For example, I'm even willing to acknowledge a vague, faint, tiny possibility that Andrea Rossi's magic box isn't a con or a huge mistake. There's no real evidence that it's for real, plenty of evidence that it isn't real and it's impossible on numerous grounds if current understanding of the relevant areas of physics is correct, but I'm willing to wait until it's open to testing (if it ever is) before saying it's absolutely definitely a con or a huge mistake.

Show me the evidence. Or don't.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 5:37:46 PM
BTW, I love how you keep trying to imply that I believe in magic, I'm a christian, or a zealot of some kind, when I keep telling you that no, I have no affiliations of the sort.


I have never implied that you're a Christian.

You do believe in magic - that's what perpetual motion machines are based on.

"Zealot" is a subjective term. Maybe it suits you, maybe it doesn't. I'm not sure and I haven't implied it.

Got any more untrue things to say?

"If you're going to believe everything you read, you're better off not reading anything at all"


Yes, that's exactly what I would say to you.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 5:34:16 PM
@Angilion: I was hoping you would say that, it just shows how ignorant you are about science.


Whatever you say to me won't change the fact that those people are not flying by flapping their arms a bit.

Whatever you say to me also won't change the fact that "keeping an open mind" doesn't mean "believing whatever I tell you to believe".

If you can show me some evidence of a device that creates energy from nothing, I'll consider that evidence. If you can show me any evidence that it even might be possible, I'll consider that evidence. That's what an open mind is - a willingness to consider the evidence. Not merely believing whatever you're told.

Burgh
Male, 40-49, Western US
 291 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 3:02:23 PM
Perpetual motion is quite a funny myth that sucks in many who are gullible.
Along those lines there has never been one person ever to "create" energy either. Hydroelectric, nuclear, coal, wind turbines etc all collect energy or release and then collect another objects stored energy.
Much of what good engineering strives for is the efficiency in which we extract it or in which we release then extract it.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 10:41:08 AM
@Angilion: BTW, I love how you keep trying to imply that I believe in magic, I'm a christian, or a zealot of some kind, when I keep telling you that no, I have no affiliations of the sort. I have no political agenda, no religion, no loyalty to a particular set of borders really. I am not trying to prove aliens nor my own personal hypothesis of how the universe works, all I am really, honestly saying, is that in order to make an intelligent argument, which you are often capable of doing, is to keep an open mind, and to abstain from spewing a "trite soundbite" of textbook information that you don't fully understand.

"If you're going to believe everything you read, you're better off not reading anything at all"

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 9:20:41 AM
@Angilion: I was hoping you would say that, it just shows how ignorant you are about science.

So you mean to say that we learned something in some area of science and applied it to a problem that seemed impossible to do at first and, under controlled conditions, were able to engineer a solution to the problem of flight. Interesting.

That's what I mean, the conservation of energy is a principle, it's something that has NO INHERENT reason to be there, it is just something we observe to be true every time, but maybe, just maybe at some point we will find a way around it, or an effect that breaks it (such as the photoelectric effect did to the PRINCIPLE of conservation of mass) and, under controlled conditions, we will be able to extract more energy than we put in.

You don't have an open mind, what you have is a brain full of textbook information and a computer with google that tells you where science is right now.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2479 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 9:02:07 AM
@insane_ai: it wouldn't work; even if there was no pump as soon as you put something that offers resistance to the flow, as small as it may be, the flow decreases and the efficiency drops to about 10%.

What I was thinking of was that, if no pump, having it electrified with a magnetic field and constantly de-energizing the fluid to reduce the resistance from Lenz's effect, but I'm afraid that would also offer some resistance and the flow might stop

insane_ai
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 680 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 8:12:48 AM
There is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine that uses no energy at all or creates its own energy.

All of these devices work on the principles of physics and gain their energy from gravity.

I think the water device could be used with a turbine to generate electricity, although I have no idea what scale would be needed to make it worth while.


5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21929 Posts
Monday, September 03, 2012 2:52:07 AM
Some of these things might be useful on some scale, but they're not creating energy from nothing.

Hi @Angilion! True that, I am a firm believer in the Laws of Thermodynamics, eh?
It's why I believe in God!
Big Bang = violation of LoTD, obviously.

When I look at Boyle's water machine, I cannot help but notice that adding a "water wheel" would in no way decrease the efficiency of the aparatus! Unlike those "overbalanced wheel" machines.
I do note that friction would, eventually, cause the machine to stop. At least I think so. Until frictionless surfaces are invented it won't be "perpetual motion".
As you point out, it takes a LOT of falling water to generate electricity. To make a device big enough to generate MegaWatts of power? idk

I have theories on "gavity/anti-gravity" machines too, but they're highly speculative and currently in the realm of Sci-Fi.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Sunday, September 02, 2012 11:30:55 PM
I don't see why the water one couldn't be useful on a very small scale, but it appears @Angilion disagrees, LOLZ!


Some of these things might be useful on some scale, but they're not creating energy from nothing.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Sunday, September 02, 2012 11:29:21 PM
keep an open mind my friend


Those people are not flying by flapping their arms a bit. They are being held up by a strong wind.

I have an open mind. That's not the same as believing everything regardless of evidence.

"Keep an open mind" or variants thereof is still a trite soundbite from believers who are saying "Anyone who doesn't have the same faith as I do is being unreasonable." It doesn't matter what the faith is - religion, conspiracy "theory", magic artefact, etc - it's still the same meaning.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21929 Posts
Sunday, September 02, 2012 9:37:26 PM
@andfrank03: Vacuum Coffee Maker! I love these and own several examples of them! :heart:

Nice link bro!

I thought the first one (water) need to be primed before it would work, otherwise it would just function as a "water level" eh?

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 21929 Posts
Sunday, September 02, 2012 9:27:53 PM
Nifty! I don't see why the water one couldn't be useful on a very small scale, but it appears @Angilion disagrees, LOLZ! gotta read the replies...

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