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Bill Nye: Creationism Is Not Appropriate For Kids

Hits: 7836 | Rating: (3.0) | Category: Science | Added by: fancylad
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11495 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 9:00:33 PM
However, I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with accepting the fact that perhaps there is something out there that is greater than all of us.


"perhaps" is not a fact. It's a possibility.

The possibility of something somewhere that is in some way greater than humans isn't a religion.

It's possible, for example, that there are people elsewhere who are all more intelligent than humans and their civilisation is more advanced than ours and their technology is more advanced than hours, so they are greater than us.

It's possible that somewhere there is something or things so much more advanced than humans that from a human perspective it/they would have divine power. It wouldn't take all that much - modern humanity could easily be seen as godlike to a bronze age peasant, just from the differences in technology.

That's not religion. It's acknowledging a possibility of something plausible.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11495 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:50:59 PM
Am I the only person in the world that was raised with a healthy dose of both religion and science?


Everyone is raised with what someone considers a healthy dose of both. I, for example, consider it deeply unhealthy to indoctrinate a child with religion. So I'd consider no religion to be the healthy dose for a child.

The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.


Yes, they do. Most religions require belief that their god(s) created humans. That's mutually exclusive with science. Religion usually discourages thought because it places superhuman importance on obedience to the religion. Religion also places superhuman importance on faith, which is exactly the opposite mindset to science.

It's not impossible to be a theist and a scientist, but only if you keep them mutually exclusive. They're totally different things and should never be confused with each other.

TheGuySmiley
Male, 18-29, Canada
 1222 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 6:48:43 PM
DaniDrkHrt: you're not alone

davymid
Male, 30-39, Europe
 12078 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 5:46:24 PM
Crakrjak said: Genetic changes do not = Evolution.

Which is precisely, and by definition, what evolution is.

Face the f*cking palm. This is why I don't argue with Crakrjak on evolution anymore. His basic (mis)understanding of evolution is summed up right there. With a cherry on top.

DaniDrkHrt
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 214 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 5:19:03 PM
Am I the only person in the world that was raised with a healthy dose of both religion and science? The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. While I shy away from organized religion, I have my own personal faith, mostly Christian with many ideals from other religions such as Buddhism. I also believe that the bible shouldn't be taken literally. It was written by man, an imperfect and fallible creature. However, I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with accepting the fact that perhaps there is something out there that is greater than all of us. Faith, however, should not be blind. We were given free will and intelligence for a reason. We were meant to question, invent, and better ourselves. It is this search for answers (scientific and religious) that brings humanity together. Humanity can never be united until we learn to find the value in every idea, doctrine, and creed.

TheGuySmiley
Male, 18-29, Canada
 1222 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 4:29:39 PM
Angilion: don't quit your day job.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10272 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 4:16:47 PM
Spanish Flu is increasingly rare, so obviously people are choosing that.


Now that I think about it that doesn't make a lot of sense. Since I've claimed that poverty is a stage in life those who ARE in poverty are there temporarily. Thus when we do get samples there will be someone claiming they're poor.

mesovortex
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 420 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 3:25:54 PM
Spanish Flu is increasingly rare, so obviously people are choosing that.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11495 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 2:58:45 PM
Angilion: I understand you have unfavourable opinions of me, but I do believe your understanding of prejudice is flawed. Prejudice is like a preconceived opinion or a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation. It is synonymous to 'bias' and 'prepossess'.


No, really? You mean that it has the same meaning that I've been using for the almost 40 years that I've been arguing against it? Well drat me, how could I have known that?

Hmm..."a preconceived opinion or a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation"...like, for example, your preconceived (and totally unsupported) opinion that you know the absolute truth and the only thing causing any and all suffering in the world is people not obeying you. Which is also ridiculous and megalomaniacal.

artmunki
Male, 30-39, Europe
 175 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 11:00:50 AM
"The "problem" is that all scientists have done is observe conditions that already exist..." - a problem to you clearly, but not for science. No scientist has ever observed the splitting of an atom, or what goes on in the heart of a star, or continental drift, or the hunting practises of prehistoric man, or any of the interactions of theoretical physics. But they can make observations of evidence related to and resulting from these phenomena, which allows for the development of theories on these interactions, and the most effecctive theories will then allow for predictions of other phenomena which can then be looked for. Darwins theory, among a great many other things, predicted genetics - quite a significant prediction, I'd say.

And anyway, you must realise how utterly, laughably redundant it is for anyone who's religious to argue that a theory they don't like cannot be true if it's never been observed.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10272 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 10:14:27 AM
But it's bordering on ignorant to think that poverty is only a stage, where in many nations, and no doubt for many people in yours, it is a way of life.


People in poverty are increasingly rare, so I suspect most of the time those who live that way in choose to do so.

things are likely to get worse before they get better on the sociological front


I doubt that very much. What I've said isn't speculation, it's based on hard empirical data. The tendancy to look for negatives is an old survival instinct.

artmunki
Male, 30-39, Europe
 175 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 9:51:56 AM
Crakr - your "response" to Lillian & myself is ... gratefully received. It's nice to see that you do actually have something of a clue about all the points I tried to make about how vague the term 'species' actually is, but it still has nothing to do with evolutionary processes. How many times do you have to be told - speciation is a result of evolution, not a part of the process. Y'know, like serving or eating a meal is the result of cooking, but not part of the cooking process. The fact that 'species' is hard to define is itself another result of the process, because the process doesn't end at some arbitrary point. This is why it's so much more appropriate to talk about populations rather than species in evolutionary discussion.
You're very fond of accusing others of straw-man arguements in every other discussion on this site, but somehow it's perfectly okay for you to set up a straw-man version of evolution for you to rail against.

TheGuySmiley
Male, 18-29, Canada
 1222 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:46:32 AM
Cajun247: It's easy to say that things are getting better when perhaps in your country it seems that way. But it's bordering on ignorant to think that poverty is only a stage, where in many nations, and no doubt for many people in yours, it is a way of life.

While technologically we've been getting better, socially we're likely no less barbaric, if not more so, than we were 1000 years ago. Wars, apathy, selfishness, and greed rage on, and because of this, things are likely to get worse before they get better on the sociological front. But I do share your hope that it will get better, because God will put sin under foot.


LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:45:25 AM
Also CJ, evolution and science in general does not work like religion. Even if Darwin ended up denouncing evolution completely before he died, that wouldn't make it any less true. Even if an original idea about evolution turned out to be false, that doesn't mean evolution is false.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:42:18 AM
CJ, you quoted a bunch of people saying that the term species is hard to define (something that I already knew, btw) and come to the conclusion that they're saying evolution = speciation? Evolution and "speciation" are not the same thing. Evolution is a combination of micro and macroevolution. Enough microevolution (change within species) and macroevolution (change from one species to another) will happen. An example, which we HAVE observed, is "ring species" as artmunki already mentioned. There's a certain type of bird where you can observe their change over a distance. Each bird can breed with its neighbor bird. But if you take the 2 birds at the opposite ends, they can't breed with each other. This is a prime example of evolution as well as a prime example of not being able to define what a species is. Are they two different species? But they can breed with the same birds just not with each other.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10272 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:05:04 AM
Now you're grasping at straws CrakrJak. None of those experts have denied that all life we see today are part of a large continuum. A constantly changing one at that. In fact the experts you cite agree that the DKPCOFGS method of organizing life in the universe is an artificial and cumbersome abstraction.

With or without God Smiley life on this planet is getting better. Crime has gone down across the globe, people are living longer, healthier, and wealthier lives. Poverty is now considered a stage in life rather than a way of life.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17130 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 7:12:53 AM
jkfld: The "problem" is that all scientists have done is observe conditions that already exist. They've never observed a species change from start to end, to the point that cross breeding would produce sterile hybrids.

That is truly what evolution depends on, Diversification through Speciation, without it the theory falls flat on it's face.

We can and have diversified animals of all kinds, through breeding, but they all remain the same species. That's not evolution and saying that it is, is a bald faced lie.

TheGuySmiley
Male, 18-29, Canada
 1222 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 5:22:24 AM
Angilion: I understand you have unfavourable opinions of me, but I do believe your understanding of prejudice is flawed. Prejudice is like a preconceived opinion or a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation. It is synonymous to 'bias' and 'prepossess'.

An example of this is like a rich man failing to admire the intellect and wit of a poor man because of his low social status. It's used quite a bit by people today, because this world of sin has brought it to a level of normalacy. It can be a hard habit for people to break since many people use it, especially if they've exercised it since a young age. Prejudice really has no place in society of love and harmony. When prejudice is held back, language can grow to become a very powerful tool.

jkfld
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 138 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 2:30:34 AM
You idiot. The validity, meaningfulness, and usefulness of the competing *concepts* of speciation is what is controversial, not the fact that phenomena generally identified as speciation happens in nature through the mechanism of evolution.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17130 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 1:32:17 AM
artmunki & Lillian: Perhaps you both should read these.

"... I was much struck how entirely vague and arbitrary is the distinction between species and varieties" Darwin 1859

"No term is more difficult to define than "species," and on no point are zoologists more divided than as to what should be understood by this word". Nicholson 1872

"The species problem is the long-standing failure of biologists to agree on how we should identify species and how we should define the word 'species'." Hey 2001

"First, the species problem is not primarily an empirical one, but it is rather fraught with philosophical questions that require - but cannot be settled by - empirical evidence." Pigliucci 2003

Speciation is at the very heart of evolution and even these scholars disagree on it. But the standard definition still stands. Speciation is necessary for evolution and no one on earth has yet observed it

slimofswiv
Male, 30-39, Europe
 116 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:59:31 AM
lets hear it for charles darwin woohoo, a man that really we know lived, now lets see who most of you yanks believe in, a hippy who there is no record of apart from a book full of stories about people on magic mushrooms, parting the sea and a burning bush? yeah right!!!!!

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11495 Posts
Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:12:58 AM
That's predictable and sad, TheSmileyGuy. Your version of religion is the only true religion, people disobeying you is the only thing stopping the world being a paradise and anyone who disagrees with you is irrationally prejudiced. Blah blah blah, same old same old.

Delusion and monumental arrogance along with playing the victim card. Predictable and sad. Par for the course for religion, obviously.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Saturday, August 25, 2012 10:14:42 PM
Here you go CJ since you're obviously lacking knowledge on evolution.

artmunki
Male, 30-39, Europe
 175 Posts
Saturday, August 25, 2012 8:41:13 PM
Well done Crakr - you performed exactly as expected. And to prove this, here's a wee prediction I made after my last posts:

"Crakr's tactic - if he responds at all, he'll ignore every point I make to which he has no cogent argument, continue to assert his own (completely innaccurate) definition of evolution, and almost certainly try to use the fact that my understanding is self-taught as some sort of proof (to him) that I'm talking rubbish"

Did I miss anything? ;P

Oh, and thanks again Crakr ... "confusing terms and denying historical fact is what dooms humanity to repeat it's mistakes" - yup, that's exactly why you need to leave your narrow-minded, biased, primitive religious viewpoints the hell out of scientific progress. Thanks for understanding!

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17130 Posts
Saturday, August 25, 2012 7:40:16 PM
Cajun247: Genetic changes do not = Evolution.
Adaptation does not = Evolution.
Breeding does not = Evolution.

Speciation = Evolution.

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