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 patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5329 Posts
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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:56:20 PM
@HG: Any response to my question? |
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 HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
3058 Posts
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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 10:34:47 AM
Masuko42
" I am saying that a person that will become a corpse should be treated with the same rights as a corpse. "
I'm pretty sure you do have all the same rights as a corpse. You just have extra ones as well.
"You can claim that the rights of the foetus should be protected, that's fine. But you should not claim that the foetus should get a baby's rights because it is a baby...because it is not. Not yet."
I've never said a fetus should get a baby's rights. You can't kill a baby to save the mother and you can't kill a baby if it was the result of a rape. I support abortions in those cases. I've also never once said a fetus is a baby. It isn't. But I believe it has value and should be protected because it will be a baby. Comparing it to a "tumor" or "sperm" is insulting in my opinion.
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 Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
2109 Posts
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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:48:44 AM
@HolyGod
Oh I've got you with this one:
I am 100% certain to become a corpse one day, with no action required whatsoever.
So surely, you should be treating me like a corpse now? Get the coffin ready for me.
You're not allowed to say "that's different", because it's not. It's IDENTICAL logic to what you're using. You're saying that a foetus that will become a baby should be treated with the same rights as a baby. I am saying that a person that will become a corpse should be treated with the same rights as a corpse.
It is the same logic, and it is FLAWED.
You can claim that the rights of the foetus should be protected, that's fine. But you should not claim that the foetus should get a baby's rights because it is a baby...because it is not. Not yet. |
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Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
2109 Posts
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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:45:28 AM
@HolyGod
"If you are trying to imply that I have a problem with homosexuality"
Not my intention. Just making it clear that we are destroying any chance of our possibile babies becoming actual babies.
"Everything is "degrees" in that way of thinking. A screw is almost a nuclear weapon, it just requires some other ingredients and assembly."
So until the screw is actually a bomb, don't call it one.
- screw + foetus, - bomb + baby.
You compared a baby to a cake...that's actually a good analogy. The mother's womb is the oven. All you need to do is leave it on and the mixture inside becomes a cake.
So...uncooked cake mix is a cake? I'll serve you some for your birthday.
Just because it is likely to BECOME a cake/baby, doesn't mean you should treat it like one YET. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5329 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 10:03:24 PM
Perhaps a thing can be intrinsically valuable while lacking a right to life. It is morally wrong, so most of us think, to inflict wanton pain on sentient creatures like dogs, cats, chickens, and so on. If I come across a wild dog, for example, then it would be wrong for me to torture that dog for hours on end. It would be wrong even if nobody cared about the dog or even knew it
existed. If so, then dogs deserve at least some level of value and respect independently of what anyone thinks about them. Dogs must therefore be intrinsically valuable; and this despite the fact that dogs do not have a right to life.
So intrinsic value doesn't necessarily grant the right to life. My question is why can a thing not come to be at one time and yet become intrinsically valuable to a particular degree at another time? Why can a thing not acquire its intrinsic value after it begins to exist? I don't see why this cannot be the case. |
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 OldOllie
Male, 50-59, Midwest US
8947 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 10:01:06 PM
The point of this post isn't about abortion. It's about Todd Akin being a fapping idiot who just gave the election to Claire McCaskill, or as we call her, Chuck Schumer in an ugly dress. He has till 5:00 CDT tomorrow to get out of the race before someone murders him.
The Mo. Rep. party will be working all night and all day tomorrow to get him to pull out. Meanwhile, Akin shut down his campaign email address and turned off his phone.
If he stays in, he won't get a penny from the state or national party, nor will he get a single endorsement from any elected Republican. My guess is he withdraws tomorrow, but if not, expect the state party to get behind one candidate for a write-in campaign. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5329 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 9:57:01 PM
@HG: Ok, so you're saying that a fetus is intrinsically valuable and thus has the right to life. This does not follow. This would summarize that position:
1)The fetus is identical with, that is, one and the same entity as the being who is later rational and self-conscious.
2)The being who is later rational and self-conscious is, at that later time, intrinsically valuable.
3)If a thing is intrinsically valuable, then it is intrinsically valuable from the moment that it exists.
4)So, the being who is later rational and self-conscious is intrinsically valuable from the moment that it exists (2) and (3)
(5) Therefore, the fetus is intrinsically valuable from the moment that it exists. (1) and (4)
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broizfam
Male, 50-59, Eastern US
824 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 4:52:53 PM
Here's something that may help clarify...but probably not! |
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broizfam
Male, 50-59, Eastern US
824 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 4:41:35 PM
@Musuko42:
Clearly, you are mass murderers! But then, so are all of us lucky enough to have sex partners because, even when conception takes place, millions of sperm cells died trying. |
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broizfam
Male, 50-59, Eastern US
824 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 4:14:10 PM
indisguise:
There are more using it for birth control than you would think. There are insurance/welfare plans that pay for abortions so the expense is not an issue, for one thing. Remembering to take a pill is an awful inconvenience in the minds of some, believe it or not, and going to sleep for ten minutes for an abortion, from time to time, is not, for some, a major issue. I once asked a 22 year old having her tenth abortion, "Wouldn't you like to start on birth control pills?" Her response? "Oh, no! I don't believe in those!" Many also abort because their contraception failed - happens from time to time. Others because of relationship issues that developed after pregnancy, because a child ties them together for years. Many are related to simple stupidity, including denial. I do still believe in choice. I do, however, much prefer to deliver a healthy baby to a happy family! |
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 QueenZira
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
1799 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 3:27:24 PM
*correction "aborted" isn't the right word there. It's more like disposed of actually. Medical vocabulary snafu. |
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QueenZira
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
1799 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 3:25:13 PM
Whether or not someone used protection is a choice, but then what she wants to do with the result is again a choice. I can't punish someone for making a choice I don't like. This makes more sense when you consider that somewhere around 70% (I think) of fertilized eggs never implant and are naturally aborted during menses.
For the record I think abortion gets ethically harder the further along development is.
I wouldn't want every instance of Choice to be under those conditions either, but the better medical care and education there is the less that will be necessary. And indeed the less it *is* necessary.
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HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
3058 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 3:02:27 PM
QueenZIrs
"What we're talking about here is a woman's right to control cell development in her own body. And no one should make that choice but her."
Absolutely. I agree. And if those cells are put there forcibly against her will she should have every right to get rid of them. However if she engages willfully and participates in an act that leads to those cells being put in her body then at the point she has made a choice. That is pro choice.
See she has control. Abstinence. Protection. Pills. IUDs. Tubes tied. Any combination of. Women can choose all kinds of methods to not get pregnant. However I don't think "well if I get pregnant I'll just go have an abortion" is a reasonable form of birth control. |
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QueenZira
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
1799 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 2:44:32 PM
I should mention here that the Daily Show is a tremendously good resource for reasoning through this whole controversy.
I cannot describe how surprised I was upon first exposure to discover that this usually explosive subject could be discussed civilly and reasonably between smart people, Jon and his guests. Would that all discourse about such major issues be dealt with similarly. |
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QueenZira
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
1799 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 2:35:43 PM
A foal is worlds apart medically from a zygote or a blastocyst or a fetus. Likewise there is a real medical difference between abortion and infanticide.
You can't call a zygote/blastocyst/fetus an "unborn child" because they plainly aren't. When the pregnancy reaches the stage of viability outside the womb it then becomes an unborn child.
What we're talking about here is a woman's right to control cell development in her own body. And no one should make that choice but her.
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 Pinkminx22
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
757 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 2:29:00 PM
I personally do not think that I could carry a child of someone who had viciously held me down and violated me. It would be bad enough to have been held down and forced against your will to have sex with some gross f*ck that gets off on doing that to women. This alone is psychologicaly damaging in the first place. I just don't think it would be right for a woman to be forced against her will to carry a pregnancy that resulted from this horrible act. Honestly, I know that I could not do it, and if there are women out there that could do it..Kudos to them..I just know that I could not do it, and if that makes me a bad person than I will just have to live with being a bad person.Pregnancy for a woman is supposed to be a happy and magical time, It is a special thing that she shares with her partner that she loves and trusts. Pregnancy should not be something that is dark and hateful because the fetus she is carrying is from someone who had forced himself apon her. |
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HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
3058 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 2:20:01 PM
Patchgrabber & Queenzira
This is why I like the abortion issue. It gives me a chance to debate with people with whom I normally always agree. ;)
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HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
3058 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 2:18:50 PM
Patchgrabber
"And if you are saying it has rights, then you're assuming the fetus is intrinsically valuable?"
Yes. Where are you going with this?
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HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
3058 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 2:18:05 PM
Patchgrabber
" the rights of the fetus supersede the rights of the mother after conception"
No. I already answered this in this thread, but here it is again:
We aren't comparing two equal rights. We are comparing the rights of an unborn baby to live vs. the rights of a woman to not be (in most cases) mildly inconvenienced for 4 or 5 months.
If we were comparing equally important rights, i.e. the rights of an unborn baby to live vs. the rights of the woman to live then it is a no brainer. I fully support abortion in that circumstance.
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HolyGod
Male, 30-39, Western US
3058 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 2:14:57 PM
QueenZira
"If you were to pay for a horse and were given a horse embryo or fetus instead you'd be pretty angry and rightfully so. The embryo/fetus isn't a horse, you can't race it or ride it."
If I were to pay for a horse and were given a newborn foal I'd be pretty angry and rightfully so. The newborn foal isn't a horse, you can't race it or ride it. So what? I don't get your analogy. If you were using it to show that fetuses are worthless and can be aborted than didn't I just use it to show newborn babies are worthless and can be murdered?
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 keith2
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
2341 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 1:35:12 PM
Well what we have here are several rape casings near the rape site, victim clearly has rapey entry wounds.. looks legit to me. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5329 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 1:32:45 PM
Weird how people are debating when a foetus becomes sentient as if it's a thing that we know, we have no way using current technology of knowing how sentient it is
While it may be impossible to know the exact moment, I've already pointed out the physiology of what is required for sentience. It is simply not possible before the third trimester, simple biology. Just because you don't know doesn't mean that others don't. |
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QueenZira
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
1799 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 1:10:45 PM
If you were to pay for a horse and were given a horse embryo or fetus instead you'd be pretty angry and rightfully so. The embryo/fetus isn't a horse, you can't race it or ride it. You need a mare and time to make it a horse. Likewise an acorn isn't an oak tree.
I've often heard Cons say that being antiabortion isn't the same thing as being anti woman. Fair enough. But being pro birth isn't the same thing as being pro life either. Women need good prenatal and postnatal care if they are to bring a pregnancy to term. That means a social safety net able to respond to their needs both before and after they give birth, which they are loath to pay for. But boy, for those few moments when the baby's head is crowning it's the most precious thing on earth, after that of course it can go directly to hell. |
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 markust123
Male, 40-49, Western US
3783 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 12:50:29 PM
One of my absolute most favorite friends was a rape baby. |
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 icklevamp
Female, 18-29, Europe
346 Posts
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Monday, August 20, 2012 12:45:35 PM
Weird how people are debating when a foetus becomes sentient as if it's a thing that we know, we have no way using current technology of knowing how sentient it is, so basically there's a lot of making crap up on this blog. |
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