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Obama Campaign Riding The Romney Gaffes

Hits: 4909 | Rating: (2.8) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: madest
Page: 13 4 5 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 2:29:50 PM
You cannot legislate away empathy. Perhaps that's the flaw with libertarianism.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:56:49 PM
@madest: "Sadly, both of those have lost half their value twice in my career."

If this be the case, then they were mismanaged; you are, at very least, partially responsible for this (since you likely chose the manager). We must accept the consequences of our actions and decisions.

Allow me to offer you this:

If you have been voting for politicians who promise to give you goodies at someone else's expense, then you have no right to complain when they take your money and give it to someone else, including themselves. – Thomas Sowell (1992)

My argument is, and always will be, that we must (as individuals) be responsible for our actions and decisions. With this, we must accept the consequences. This is the definition of liberty.

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:50:59 PM
Yeah I'm going to "milk" my entitlement called Social security, I work in the private sector for a small business owner and I've been paying into it since I was 16 and according to all the mailers I've received I've been entitled to the maximum payout since my mid 20's. I also have a supplemental 401k and a mutual fund. Sadly, both of those have lost half their value twice in my career. But don't you worry, I'll be just fine thanks to my entitlement.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:44:56 PM
Look man - you're way too small minded. You act as if you know some inside secrets about economics and that you're intelligence will spare you specifically from the affects of devaluing liberty.

I think you're probably of average intelligence.

My libertarian friends said this:

"The preference in public health care policy is for a system that provides care and medical supplies to the poor and the elderly (favored by 67% to 74%), but not necessarily to all people"

This is not Obamacare, which extends to everyone. All of your attacks thus far have been mis-quotes and subjective reasoning.

So please, grab a ladder, climb off that horse, and realize that you are just another sheep lacking any real knowledge of your preachings.

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:39:41 PM
Look man. You're way too high minded. Your small business doesn't provide me with jack. You're trying to give off this vibe that you're so damn smart that you're uninsured so therefore it must be what smart people do, and if anything goes wrong you'll be fine because you saved up for such an event. I think you're fulla crap. You talk up these genius's and how libertarian they are but they support national healthcare so please get a ladder and climb down off that horse and realize that you are not onto the secrets of life anymore than the authors of the Bible were.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:37:58 PM
@madest: Allow me to ask you this - how much have you saved for retirement? Will it be enough, or will you depend on milking the social security teet of society? No, perhaps you have a state/federal pension and will continue to draw from society well after retirement.

I have a business, and savings. I won't need any of that. You're the deadbeat here, don't be confused.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:29:13 PM
@madest: Don't be a deadbeat and try to justify your theiving ways. Wake up and realize that small businesses provide your income through economic stimulation (and provides your health care).

Also, even if that person were insured, he would eat most of that cost.

In addition, this is the role of private charity, not government you tyrant.

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:22:45 PM
There was an uninsured victim in the Aurora shooting. He's facing medical costs upward of $2,000,000. Don't be a deadbeat, join society and get insurance. Your genius's would approve.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:14:29 PM
@madest: "OK It's a tax increase on the uninsured. The deadbeats of society." I am uninsured because I own a business, and save 20% of my income. If something tragic were to happen to my health, I could pay for it out of pocket.

Do NOT tell me that I am a deadbeat because I have been responsible with my decisions and savings and refuse to take part in a scheme that statistically will cost me more over the span of my life than paying out of pocket will.

Enjoy your check. You stole it from me.

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:11:21 PM
OK It's a tax increase on the uninsured. The deadbeats of society. I've been insured my whole life. National healthcare won't be a tax increase on me. In fact my insurance company will probably be sending me a check later this summer. Booya!

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:03:04 PM
"We tried not caring"
No we didn't. Hopsitals MUST provide emergency care (since 1986 - see EMTALA). That's forced caring, not the other way around. We also have medicare/medicaid, which are certainly not "not caring."

"the end result was increased costs for taxpayers and those who were insured"
This was the result of caring. See above.

"If they're not willing to protect themselves with insurance why should the burden be placed on the responsible citizen?"
This is a libertarian stance. I agree 100%.

"National healthcare isn't a tax increase."
Yes it is; the Supreme Court has stated so.

The problem with your argument is that you assume that national healthcare will provide care for the "deadbeats" at no increased cost to the rest of us. Logically, this doesn't make sense. The money must come from somewhere, and since it's a governmental program, it will come from raising taxe

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 11:46:35 AM
I can answer the libertarians question. Healthcare professionals are required by oath to care for the infirmed. We tried not caring and the end result was increased costs for taxpayers and those who were insured. If they're not willing to protect themselves with insurance why should the burden be placed on the responsible citizen? That's certainly not fair. National healthcare isn't a tax increase. It's a deadbeat stopper.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 11:08:14 AM
@madest: "I think ones constitutional rights should follow them nationwide."

... your Constitutional rights do follow you nationwide ... That's why they are Constitutional rights.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 11:06:25 AM
@madest: Well, states' rights are provided in the Constitution; agree or disagree with them - they are there.

I believe that there is a much more fundamental way to categorize political beliefs. There are those who want to control others (liberals and conservatives), and those who have no such desire (libertarians).

Let me propose this example of various mindsets regarding gay rights:

A liberal suggests we should make legislation to allow gays to marry.
A conservative suggests we should make legislation to prevent gays from marrying.
A libertarian suggests we REMOVE the current illegal legislation preventing gays from marrying.

So, for healthcare:

A liberal asks, "how can you oppose saving lives?"
A conservative asks, "how can you support raising taxes?"
A libertarian asks, "what business is this of the government?"

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 10:59:56 AM
Ron Paul could fix my toilet any day. I don't agree with the states-rights crowd either because I think ones constitutional rights should follow them nationwide.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 10:47:16 AM
@madest: While he is strongly against abortion, he has consistently and firmly stated that it is a matter of states' rights. This is libertarian, as in, we agree with limited government and state sovereignty.

There is a very important concept that is commonly overlooked in this type of debate - personal beliefs vs. political agenda. Ron Paul certainly has some personal beliefs that I don't agree with, but his political agenda is that of limited federal government and states' rights.

I mean, you wouldn't turn away a plumber because he is pro-life (even though that has no impact on his ability to perform his work), or would you?

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 10:30:49 AM
That's the problem with Ron Paul. His freedom and liberty mantra ends where his religion begins. He's against abortion. Not that I really care because I'm a guy, but as a guy I know that if men gave birth abortions would be government provided and available at your local 7-11. Forcing somebody against their will to give birth to a baby they don't want is not anywhere near libertarian. He's also stated that marriage rights should be decided by the states and clearly that's another nod to the religious freaks. The 14th amendment is nationwide not on a "if states agree" basis. Another thing, because you've seen Ron Paul does not mean you understand his positions better than those who haven't, there's this crazy website called Youtube that has endless hours of the guy speaking.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 9:58:57 AM
@madest: Whoa there, don't put words in my mouth - that is not my thesis. I'm am merely pointing out that those with socially liberal viewpoints, and fiscally conservatives viewpoints tend to be more intelligent.

As for proof, neither of us haven given any "proof". We are merely presenting evidence that aligns with our points (See: How a Debate Works). Your study is irrelevant as a debate item, because I've agreed with the findings - there's nothing to debate there.

As for Ron Paul, I am fairly certain I'm more informed than the average; I am aware of what he has said; I've also attended some of his speeches. With that in mind, Ron Paul is lightyears ahead of Obama or Romney as a libertarian. Also, libertarians don't assume anyone has a particular personal belief nor do we discriminate against them for it. It only matters if it affects the individual liberties of others (which this doesn't).

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 9:32:47 AM
You haven't provided any factual evidence that proves your thesis that the more intelligent you are the more libertarian you are. On the other hand I provided a link to a study that both you and I agree with that dumb people are socially conservative. I don't think there is a study that proves your point but if you ever find one you'll know where to find me.
I donated to the Ron Paul campaign the first time around. Back then he trusted in evolution and I know that because he was not one of the 3 candidates who raised their when questioned on it. Someone got a hold of him after that run and made him bow to social conservatives this time around. Turns out he's a pussy and not someone I could vote for much less respect. If you're a libertarian who supports Ron Paul you're either not a libertarian or not paying attention.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:55:56 AM
@madest: Yep... they're libertarians.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:54:45 AM
@madest: Oh no, you're mistaken; it wasn't the link that won the argument. The argument was won via logic.

"seem to me more "liberal" than conservative or libertarian"

Let's review the poll's summary.

"The TNS opinions sampled here show a clear preference for minimal government involvement in personal lifestyle matters (drugs, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, pornography, gambling) and commercial business (subsidies, genetic engineering, Internet commerce, trade with China)."

Now, lets just dump the first definition I find for libertarian in here and see how it compares...

1. One who believes that the only legitimate purpose of a government is to protect the rights of its citizens. (check)
2. Anyone who supports civil liberties to a greater-than-average degree. (check)
3. Anyone who believes in minimal, decentralized government. (check)

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:39:55 AM
You haven't debunked anything. You're claiming that intelligent people are fiscally conservative when the link you provided does not prove anything. A study might, but a group of highly intelligent people who share ideas that seem to me more "liberal" than conservative or libertarian doesn't prove a thing. No more so than a group of billionaires who support conservatism prove that rich people are conservative. I know you think you won some internet argument with your link but I don't think you did.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:22:34 AM
@madest: I've noticed that you haven't defended any of your debunked points. Instead, you always migrate to a more granular, albeit insignificant "point".

If you don't like Ron Paul because he is religious (even though he clearly states that he would never let his religion impact political decisions), then you are simply a bigot; an anti-religion bigot.

This would be the same line of reasoning as the social conservatives - many of which did not support Obama because he is black. There were/are, in fact, much better reasons not to support Obama.

Unfortunately, it seems to be an ever-increasing concept that it is fine to discriminate for some reasons, and not others.

So, let me ask you this: do you dislike Ron Paul because he is privately religious (as you've indicated), or is there another reason? If so, please tell me that reason so I can debunk that one also.

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6464 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:10:16 AM
Anybody who places science behind a 2000 year old book written by uneducated nomads is a religious kook. He's a friggin Doctor who denies evolution. Come on with the pass you and other Paullites give him.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Saturday, July 28, 2012 7:50:36 AM
@madest: Liberal does not mean Democrat, and Conservative does not mean Republican. There are Liberal Republicans (George Bush) and Conservative Democrats. Trying to mix the two does nothing more than blur the message.

As for Ron Paul, I think it's a pretty radical stretch to call him a religious kook. He consistently states that he is religious, but that it is a private matter and has no bearing on his political beliefs. Here is one of his many quotes on the subject:

"My faith is a deeply private issue to me, and I don’t speak on it in great detail during my speeches because I want to avoid any appearance of exploiting it for political gain."

As for taxation, libertarians understand that there must be some for the purposes stated in the Constitution (national defense, etc.) These libertarians suggest a national flat tax or a flat-rate income tax. These concepts are fiscally conservative.

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