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Mayor Bloomberg Says Cops should Go On Strike

Hits: 5147 | Rating: (2.0) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: Cajun247
Page: 1 24 5 6 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5713 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:39:35 AM
My argument regarding Iowa and Wyoming, PROVES that gun availability is not the cause of homicide rates.

Not really, you're assuming that gun laws are the ONLY factor regulating gun violence in this instance. You also haven't "PROVEN" that tighter gun laws don't affect gun crime. I could make the argument with my chart that tighter gun laws PROVE less gun crime. Don't throw around the word "prove," it makes you look silly.

Of course the US will have higher gun-related deaths that Canada.

Well since my chart is per 100,000 people, then it's a better representation of your "violent crime" stats.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5713 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:35:03 AM
No, no, no. Now YOU'RE cherry-picking

How exactly am I cherry-picking when he's trying to compare assault, vehicle theft, sexual assault etc. to a debate about GUN violence? The debate isn't about which country has more violent crime per capita, it's about gun violence.

Anecdotal evidence at best, and I suspect the quote was taken out of context.

Well anecdotal it may be, the quote wasn't out of context, as the person asked the seller if he required a criminal record check and that was the response.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:33:57 AM
@patchgrabber: "No, it doesn't, because you've just reframed the argument when you made it 'violent crime.'"

Well it could be argued that you are cherry picking statistics regarding violent crimes to suit your argument as well. Of course the US will have higher gun-related deaths that Canada. That does NOT prove that lax gun laws affect homicide rates.

My argument regarding Iowa and Wyoming, PROVES that gun availability is not the cause of homicide rates. If they were, these "shall issue" states MUST have relatively higher homicide rates. Your argument merely PROVES that there is a postivie correlation between gun saturation and homicide rates. Your argument does NOT PROVE causality.

It is much easier to PROVE that no causality exists than to PROVE that one does.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10246 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:32:52 AM
No, but they require that after being discharged you return the rifle so they can remove the fully automatic function.


Which they could reinstall at a later date.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10246 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:28:30 AM
That is a grab-bag term for all crime violent in nature and this is a gun crime debate.


No, no, no. Now YOU'RE cherry-picking.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10246 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:27:20 AM
I've seen documentaries where they film the loophole in action. The seller's response? "It's a private sale, no check needed."


Anecdotal evidence at best, and I suspect the quote was taken out of context.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5713 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:26:07 AM
Here's a more accurate comparison:

Source: Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Homicide Survey; Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.; Australian Institute of Criminology; and England & Wales Home Office.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5713 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:20:25 AM
Does this satisfy your need for global stats vs my alleged "cherry picking"?

No, it doesn't, because you've just reframed the argument when you made it "violent crime." That is a grab-bag term for all crime violent in nature and this is a gun crime debate. Stick to the topic.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5713 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:17:43 AM
@McGovern: I'm not debating your 2nd Amendment, it's an integral part of your country. Problem is, as societies evolve, the interpretation and implications need to be re-assessed to ensure that people's right to guns doesn't infringe your right to (while acting legally) not be shot by guns.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:15:58 AM
@patchgrabber: It's just how statistics work... Not so much cherry-picking, just showing that gun laws are not the cause, merely an inconsequential factor. Therefore, changing them will be ineffectual.

Consider this, TOTAL violent crime rates in Canada - 1,282/100k Statistics Canada - Government

Now, violent crime rate in the US are only 403.6/100k (3x less). FBI Statistics

Both stats are for 2010. Does this satisfy your need for global stats vs my alleged "cherry picking"?

McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 13354 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:12:37 AM
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED"- 2nd Amendment

It was the second right our founders chose to make for a reason.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5713 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:02:06 AM
Iowa and Wyoming (and others) have lower homicide rates that Canada

So now we're cherry-picking certain areas and comparing them to a whole country? You know, Nunavut has lower gun crime than the US too.

This is further evidence that, again, culture is the culprit and that it acts independently of gun laws.

So what you're saying, then, is that your culture is that of gun violence and there's nothing to be done?

@MeGrendel: You're just in denial. I've seen documentaries where they film the loophole in action. The seller's response? "It's a private sale, no check needed."

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4523 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:41:48 AM
patchgrabber-"the same gun show loopholes your nation does"

The gun show loophole is a myth. It does not exist.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:37:57 AM
@patchgrabber: Again, I disagree. For example, Iowa and Wyoming (and others) have lower homicide rates that Canada, and both are "shall issue" states.

This is further evidence that, again, culture is the culprit and that it acts independently of gun laws.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5713 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:34:56 AM
From a logical standpoint, your statement actually provides support for my argument: gun laws are not the issue, area-specific culture is.

But gun laws are the issue. Those two countries have specific regulations regarding owning and carrying guns, and they don't have the same gun show loopholes your nation does, as they require written contracts between buyer and seller with ID required and seller has to establish reasonable certainty that the buyer has a weapon acquisition permit (which only allows for 3 guns, btw) and a clean criminal record. So gun control laws are a part of the solution.

I also didn't "state" that gun crime would go down with proper training, I said it was "likely." Unfortunately for your country you have neither adequate gun control laws or requirements for proper training and discipline.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:24:05 AM
@patchgrabber: "Switzerland and Israel require military service of everyone, and I've already said that if that were true of your country you'd likely have lower levels of gun crime, or at least I'd feel more comfortable knowing that each person who has a gun has been taught the discipline of military training."

From a logical standpoint, your statement actually provides support for my argument: gun laws are not the issue, area-specific culture is. You state that, regardless of gun laws, proper training would lessen violent crime rates. This is NOT what you would expect if gun ownership laws were the issue - you would expect to see no change. Instead, you anticipate a reduction, which points to culture and education being the true issue at hand.

Also - this is a states rights issue; just saying. Any state that hates guns is able to impose stricter gun laws (though not ban).

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5713 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:16:58 AM
The actual ORIGINS would be more closer to Og, Thak & Kreb.

That's just your speculation. Greek city-states originated democracy, before that it was monarchy, oligarchy, dictatorship etc. The Og example is meritocracy at best.

@Humanaction: Switzerland and Israel require military service of everyone, and I've already said that if that were true of your country you'd likely have lower levels of gun crime, or at least I'd feel more comfortable knowing that each person who has a gun has been taught the discipline of military training.

McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 13354 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:07:28 AM
ROFL what a jackass!! Ya that's working out so well for Mexico.....

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:01:49 AM
@patchgrabber: To quote theCato Institute (typically recognized as unbiased):

"...the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures. In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel 'have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.' A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime."

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4523 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:57:57 AM
patchgrabber-"whereas democracy is a political philosophy and idea...

which did not originate with Greeks (specifically, Athens). Athens was actully the first RECORDED time the term was used. The concept predates that.

The actual ORIGINS would be more closer to Og, Thak & Kreb.

patchgrabber-" you assume everyone in the military will turn on the government?"

No, I know that a majority of soldiers WOULD defect if the government was dumb enough to try to send the army against the populace.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5713 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:54:07 AM
More than 2/3rds of the active military would go AWOL and join the citizens and probably more than 2/3rds of all gun owners would fight if the US government pulled a Syria.

Speculation. I'm going by other cases to form the hypothesis that they wouldn't.

HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2353 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:46:12 AM
@madest: <i>"Conservatives throughout history have been against progress."</i>

First off, I consider myself a libertarian conservative - so take it as you will. However, if government had NEVER made illegal laws to begin with, not a single one of those problems would have ever occurred.

Why can't gays marry in some areas? The government illegally says they can't. Why did women need to fight for "equal" rights? Because the government denied them. Civil rights? Same thing - government was to blame.

Your sense of "progress" is to hand the responsibility of making otherwise simple decisions to the government; this is the same government that has not been able to prove its capability to be responsible.

Just because YOU think it's "progress" doesn't automatically make it so. In fact, I argue that we make progress by moving away from governmental intervention - especially regarding social issues. Most co

auburnjunky
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 10093 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:43:34 AM
"So you assume everyone in the military will turn on the government?"

More than 2/3rds of the active military would go AWOL and join the citizens and probably more than 2/3rds of all gun owners would fight if the US government pulled a Syria.

It would be over pretty quick, with regime change.

auburnjunky
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 10093 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:38:30 AM
"Conservatives throughout history have been against progress."

So says Abraham Lincoln.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5713 Posts
Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:28:25 AM
And Sir Isaac Newton invented the conept [sic] of 'Gravity'. Does that mean it didn't exist before an apple fell on his head?

Come on, gravity is a quality of everything that exists, whereas democracy is a political philosophy and idea. An idea is not the same as a physical principle, yours is a false analogy but nice try.

what pitifully remains of the largest standing army in the world will cower from 200 million privately-owned firearms and fully armed former members of said army

So you assume everyone in the military will turn on the government? Because that's obviously what's happened in every civil war ever. Your arguments are like a milking stool with one leg.

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