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 patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5290 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 12:31:54 PM
@Cajun: For the same reason I would want an AR-15? |
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 Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
9438 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 12:28:33 PM
then why can't I collect tanks, nuclear missles
Why would you want to? |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 12:21:26 PM
cont'd
There's no reason to own one of those, because if I'm a "collector" then why can't I collect tanks, nuclear missles etc. as well? If your argument is that restricting guns won't decrease overall violence then I agree, but as I've said in previous threads, hard to have innocent bystander deaths or mass killings with knives. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 12:19:33 PM
By restricting the statistics to firearm-related crime, you've committed the fallacy of a single cause. In reality, when restricting guns, the most likely outcome will be a rise in other violent crimes to compensate
I see your point, and I would probably agree that there would be other forms of violent crime to compensate, however if your goal is to decrease gun crime then it's more clear. I had never said that by eliminating gun crime you eliminate violent crime in general. I wasn't debating the inherent levels of violence in a culture, just that if your goal is to reduce gun violence that letting people who shouldn't have guns i.e. mentally unstable, criminal etc. obtain them easily is the wrong thing to do. I'll agree that culture plays a big part in American gun love, but I also think there should be more limitations such as adding assault rifles (semi-auto included) to lists of guns banned from public ownership. |
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 madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
6407 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 12:09:06 PM
Those silly motivation posters you post McGovern can be easily countered by facts and statistics but why would anyone waste their time on someone so empty headed? |
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 McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
10257 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:33:18 AM
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McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
10257 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:30:28 AM
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Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
9438 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:27:15 AM
I think me and HumanAction gave the same conclusion. |
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 HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
1155 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:25:03 AM
@patchgrabber: Actually, you're logic has been rather thoroughly assailed. Your clear implication - yes, you've implied something here by arguing - is that tighter gun control laws will decrease gun-related crimes - well duh.
An analogy is this: if I outlaw motorcycles, motorcycle accidents will fall - obviously. However, we can be fairly certain that pedestrian, and other transportation-related accidents will consequently rise.
By restricting the statistics to firearm-related crime, you've committed the fallacy of a single cause. In reality, when restricting guns, the most likely outcome will be a rise in other violent crimes to compensate.
My logic suggests simply that there are infinitely more variables to homicide and violent crime rates than the single cause of gun availability.
This claim is supported in the evidence I have already submitted. |
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Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
9438 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:22:39 AM
If using RELEVANT statistics is foolish then i guess I'm guilty. If trying to lump all violent crime into a debate about gun crime is logical then i guess you beat me there.
That's our objection, you may lose some form crime which may be replaced by another. In essence a zero-sum result. If your solely focused on gun crime over other forms of crime where a victim could really benefit from being armed, then it's a very myopic perspective. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:21:57 AM
@MeGrendel: the man in the doc was selling at a gun show, but he still called it a private sale. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:19:09 AM
But maybe you are right, maybe it's a culture thing, in which case it would seem your country is doomed to large amounts of gun violence with no end in sight. |
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 MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
2339 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:18:54 AM
patchgrabber-""It's a private sale, no check needed.""
Which is accurate.
I don't need a background check or a license to sell one of my guns to anyone I meet outside of a gun show.
Why should I need on AT a gun show if I'm not a seller (by seller, I mean a licensed dealer who purchased a booth at the show to sell guns). If I'm there to buy guns, and someone likes the gun I'm carrying and offers me a butt-load of money for it, there's no law that says I can't sell it. Nor any law that says I need to perform a background check.
Again, the 'gun show loophole' does not exist. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:14:01 AM
If using RELEVANT statistics is foolish then i guess I'm guilty. If trying to lump all violent crime into a debate about gun crime is logical then i guess you beat me there. My logic is unassailable. I've never said tighter gun laws would fix your problem, because I'm not convinced it can be fixed. I do, however, believe that tighter gun laws would help. |
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McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
10257 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:13:40 AM
@patchgrabber
Take a look at Mexicos gun laws and crime rate. |
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Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
9438 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:56:02 AM
And yet he did walk out with one.
I didn't see that in the video. |
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Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
9438 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:55:24 AM
Declining crime rates attributed to advancing technology and industrialization |
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HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
1155 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:52:50 AM
@patchgrabber: "Don't throw around the word 'prove,' it makes you look silly."
I wish I could start a poll on this thread to see, who of the two of us, looks more foolish in this discussion. After re-reading both of our arguments, I believe that you are indeed the more foolish.
Also, please review my previous comment, as I think it aptly illustrates the logical faults you've made thus far.
As always, looking forward to your reply.
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:51:34 AM
If he didn't walk out with a gun no sell was made.
And yet he did walk out with one. |
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patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5290 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:50:52 AM
you therefore imply that lax gun laws in the US are responsible for this.
No, that's you putting words in my mouth. I said I "could" make that argument, and I said it in the context of proving YOUR faulty logic. Also, my chart shows the US has almost 6X the amount of GUN homicides per capita as Canada, not 3X.
Now, I've provided statistics that show that violent crime rates in Canada are approximately 3x that of US; can I now imply that strict gun laws in Canada are responsible for this?
No, again your reasoning is faulty. You're applying gun laws to knife violence etc. which is incorrect. |
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Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
9438 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:48:51 AM
as the person asked the seller if he required a criminal record check and that was the response.
If he didn't walk out with a gun no sell was made. |
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McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
10257 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:48:38 AM
 |
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McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
10257 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:46:29 AM
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HumanAction
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
1155 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:43:01 AM
@patchgrabber: OK, let's looks at this from a different perspective then. We can both agree that gun laws in the US are more lax than in Canada, yes?
Now, you've provided statistics that show that homicide rates in the US are approximately 3x that of Canada; you therefore imply that lax gun laws in the US are responsible for this.
Let's use the same logic in the following section, and see if you can notice the fault in your logic. Ready? Here goes:
Now, I've provided statistics that show that violent crime rates in Canada are approximately 3x that of US; can I now imply that strict gun laws in Canada are responsible for this? |
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McGovern1981
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
10257 Posts
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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:40:04 AM
The number one killer in the US, Canada and the UK is Cardiovascular disease. When will you be banning fat people. You're going down a slippery slope I refuse to partake in more bans. |
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