 BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 6532 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:35:14 PM
@MacGuffin Yes, i would feel differently.
@Xenophonix Her intention was to kill *Both* herself and the child. It says so in the article. I do believe you give up the right to kill your children when you become pregnant. Do you think women have a right to smoke crack throughout their pregnancy? |
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 miasmaat
Female, 18-29, Western US
299 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:29:24 PM
Here's the rub though... Suicide is NEVER condoned by the people who would consider a group of cells a person from the first moment of division. These people tend to be religiously motivated (translate - stupid and irrational) and they generally don't respect the notion of mental disorder either.
If anyone gave a real crap about this woman, someone would have noticed her devolving mental state.
I think it is about as rational to throw a suicidally depressed person in jail for being self absorbed as it is to throw a teenager in jail for use of a recreational drug.
Why not just sentence them to death for homosexuality?! Its all on the same spectrum of religiously motivated societal controls.
More to the point - what do you want to do? Strap every woman who wants an abortion to a bed for nine months until the baby can be forcibly taken from her? Make her into a mere extended fetal sac?! Them's Nazi Ideas, folks! |
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 Xenophonix
Female, 18-29, Europe
190 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:27:33 PM
The difference is that the rights of the baby in the womb directly impact on the rights of the woman. You can't give any treatment to an unborn baby without affecting the woman in some way. The choice is, do the rights of the unborn baby override the rights of the woman to have control of her own body? This includes whether she has the right to try to kill herself or not just because she happens to be pregnant.
Either way, I suspect her prime motive was to kill herself and the child dying was a consequence, not that she was trying to kill the child directly. This makes the world of difference in a law court apparently. |
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 MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:26:54 PM
@MacGuffin It's not just because the baby was at a stage where it couldn't legally be aborted. It has to do with *why* the baby couldn't legally be aborted. I don't really know the statistics, but I know for sure that if a baby is born at 33 weeks it has a very good chance of surviving
So would you feel differently about it if the foetus had been at 23 weeks and didn't survive a mother's suicide attempt? |
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 DuckBoy87
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
2089 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:22:24 PM
It's a slippery slope to call it murder.
That being said, I don't approve of abortion as a way of contraception.
I do approve of abortion if 1) the mother's life is endangered by giving birth, 2) the child has a severe defect, including autism and down's syndrome, or 3) the child is a rape baby. |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6532 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:18:40 PM
@MacGuffin It's not just because the baby was at a stage where it couldn't legally be aborted. It has to do with *why* the baby couldn't legally be aborted. I don't really know the statistics, but I know for sure that if a baby is born at 33 weeks it has a very good chance of surviving (at least in the US and most developed countries). I wouldn't be surprised if it's a fairly high percentage. So what's the difference between the life of a premature baby born at 33 weeks and a fetus still in the womb at 33 weeks? |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:08:00 PM
Slippery Slope is a fallacy for a reason. These are two different cases.
You've got a fair point. If this were a woman driving a car with a six-month old baby in it, and she deliberately tried to commit suicide by driving the car into a tree, and she failed to kill herself but succeeded in killing the child, I doubt many people would have any problem with putting her on trial for culpable homicide (in the UK) or 2nd degree murder (in the US) at least. It complicates matters a bit, though, when you're talking about a foetus. If you want to say that it's murder because the child couldn't be legally aborted, that's one thing; but then is it less of a culpable act if the unborn foetus *is* at a stage where it could be aborted? Does that mean murderers that attempt to kill pregnant women with foetuses below the abortion threshold can't be tried with murder? It's definitely not a simple cut-and-dried issue.
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6532 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:06:01 PM
lol, gerry... it angers me how liberal and one sided that article was. This is not an abortion case. I don't know any legitimate Pro-Choice movement that advocates abortion during the second half of the third trimester. |
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 swoop408
Male, 18-29, Western US
1768 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:04:45 PM
Comparing a pregnant woman with obvious psychological problems that tried up commit suicide to Hitler -- seems legit. |
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swoop408
Male, 18-29, Western US
1768 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:03:03 PM
Oh and with no surprise the right wing "Christians" are the most unforgiving and want this woman's head. Way to follow Jesus, folks. Hahaha! |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6532 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:02:36 PM
Godwin's Law ftw |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6532 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:01:00 PM
and Hitler for that matter. Maybe he's not such a bad guy after all - he was just in a dark place |
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swoop408
Male, 18-29, Western US
1768 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:00:53 PM
Lol no its not murder. Stupid. |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6532 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:59:59 PM
@Xenophonix just like someone who shoots up a school and then turns the gun on themselves. They should be absolved of all the murders too? |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6532 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:57:10 PM
@MacGuffin, I think that was an episode of House... j/k.
But seriously, Slippery Slope is a fallacy for a reason. These are two different cases. If someone intentionally tries to kill themselves and their child and they survive and their child dies, that's a pretty open and shut case. It doesn't set a president for what you're talking about. |
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Xenophonix
Female, 18-29, Europe
190 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:54:26 PM
Blanktom - she tried to _kill_ herself! You don't take rat poison and expect to live. No matter what has happened to you, you have to be in a dark place to try to kill yourself... |
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 DrProfessor
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
3524 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:52:41 PM
You'd probably follow the same guidelines for when you consider the murder of a pregnant woman double-homicide. It would have to be after a certain period of time. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:50:42 PM
33 weeks pregnant? Isn't that almost full term? So yeah, i would say that's murder - how could you think otherwise?
It still makes me uncomfortable as a legal premise. Where does it stop? There was a historical case I read about from the early nineties, where a late term pregnant woman in the US found out that she had cancer, and her oncologist advised her to start chemotherapy right away. Her obstetrician, on the other hand, got a court order preventing her from getting the treatment that may have saved her life. She died in the end, waiting for the treatment that could have saved her life. That, to me, is murder - of a fully grown woman by a medical professional, rather than of an unborn foetus by a mother. |
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 Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
25590 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:50:37 PM
Best quote in the whole article, "I know a lot of women who, but for the grace of God, could be in her position. Good women. Wonderful, talented, intelligent women. Great mothers."
Great women don't do this.
Especially great 'mothers' don't. |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6532 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:50:22 PM
"It's a tragic case yes, but it seems cruel to charge her with murder after what she's been through..."
I'm sorry, what was the ordeal she has been through? Her boyfriend dumped her? |
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Xenophonix
Female, 18-29, Europe
190 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:46:33 PM
The problem with cases like these is the obvious confliction of two human's rights. It's a slippery slope calling it murder, at what point do you tie a woman up and force her to carry the baby to term and give birth? Just my opinion, but until the baby is born, I believe the women's right to control over her own body always come before the baby.
It's a tragic case yes, but it seems cruel to charge her with murder after what she's been through... |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6532 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:44:13 PM
33 weeks pregnant? Isn't that almost full term? So yeah, i would say that's murder - how could you think otherwise? |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:43:53 PM
totally made a dumb post: lets see if anyone caught it.
You know what, since you realised it was dumb on your own, I'm going to let you off. ;) |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6532 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:42:32 PM
totally made a dumb post: lets see if anyone caught it. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:41:21 PM
Well it should only matter if they actually survive the suicide.
If they both die, why waste the time deciding if shes guilty of murdering her unborn child? You can't punish someone who's already dead.
As far as I know, even the US justice system has never tried to prosecute a corpse. |
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