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 markust123
Male, 40-49, Western US
 3783 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:31:59 PM
As a man unless you are the father you have zero say in what she does with her body. That being said I would have waited a few weeks and given the kid up for adoption. The fact that she didn't points to her being mentally disturbed. Because of that I'm going to back away slowly from this post. |
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 DrProfessor
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
3528 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:30:20 PM
From BlankTom's article: "She is being prosecuted under laws originally intended to punish third parties who attack pregnant women and injure or kill fetuses."
--Called it |
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 MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:29:50 PM
Macguffin, you absolutely _do_ have the right to kill yourself. It is only illegal if someone helps you.
I notice that you used the word "right" in your first sentence, but "illegal" in your second, whilst directly comparing the two entirely different concepts, which suggests you're confusing the two, wilfully or not.
I can assure you, you don't have a "right to kill yourself", despite it not being "illegal" to do so. Try telling your GP that you intend to kill yourself tomorrow, and that it's your right to do so: you'll find yourself in a secure mental hospital for your own protection before you can say "but it's my right!". Attempt and fail suicide, and there's a fair chance the same thing will happen to you. Try and starve yourself to death: you'll find yourself under involuntary feeding in that same mental health facility. |
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 Xenophonix
Female, 18-29, Europe
190 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:29:14 PM
BlankTom - it's a safeguard against someone being coerced into committing suicide by another. It also has to do with our "duties as doctors" rules that under oath, doctors are not allowed to administer treatment with the intention of ending a life. The reason people are prevented to go oversees to commit suicide with dignitas is that there will be someone by definition killing you, which is illegal under uk law. |
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 BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6533 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:26:43 PM
@LuckyDave where is it legal to have an abortion at 33 weeks? |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6533 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:25:20 PM
@Xenophonix how is it that it's righteous to kill yourself but illegal for someone to assist you? Seems a little bit odd to me. |
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 LuckyDave
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
628 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:25:14 PM
At best she's a victim of manslaughter (fetuslaughter?). But to be fair, if abortion is legal then these people charging her should not have a single leg to stand on. If abortion were illegal, then yes, they have a point; but since it is this woman should be released immediately and her criminal record wiped. She attempted to kill herself, maybe charge her with attempted suicide, but the ability to have an abortion should wash her hands of any crime implied or otherwise. In a clinical abortion the end product is the same, a fetus is killed, the only difference is that there is more paperwork and $500 shelled out. |
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Xenophonix
Female, 18-29, Europe
190 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:19:36 PM
Macguffin, you absolutely _do_ have the right to kill yourself. It is only illegal if someone helps you. As I said before, the charges in assisted suicide are against the person helping you kill yourself, not the person Wanting to die.
Our suicide act:
1 Suicide to cease to be a crime.
The rule of law whereby it is a crime for a person to commit suicide is hereby abrogated.
2 Criminal liability for complicity in another’s suicide.
(1)A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the suicide of another, or an attempt by another to commit suicide, shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.
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 TKD_Master
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
4827 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:16:52 PM
No, it's a successful abortion. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:15:28 PM
Yes macguffin, I'm not talking about assisted suicide, that is illegal because the person who helped kill you is guilty. You cannot be charged for any offence here in the uk for trying to or succeeding to take your own life. So says the suicide act of 1961. But we're getting off the subject..
I didn't say it was illegal to kill yourself, or that you could be charged with an offence for attempting to do so. Nor did I bring up the possibility of other people being prosecuted for assisting a suicidal person. I simply said that you don't have a "right to try and end your own life", which is what you had asserted. The lack of such a 'right' is the whole entire basis on which the state has legally prevented people from travelling when it has determined the intent to commit suicide exists. If there were such a right to kill yourself, under what basis do you think the state would be able to confiscate otherwise law-abiding people's passports? |
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 DShephard
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
1587 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:11:22 PM
I have to agree with MacGuffin here.
She makes a dang good point. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:08:10 PM
A "baby" didn't die. A fetus was aborted due to the attempt. Now, if we want to make that a crime, fine. But there was no "baby" in this situation.
For me, there's an important difference between a foetus "being aborted" (which is dispassionate act conducted by medical professionals, and happens in a controlled clinical setting), and a pregnancy being terminated by some other deliberate act. That's why there's (correctly in my opinion) scope for charging someone that assaults a pregnant woman to the loss of her unborn child with murder. It's not about whether the unborn child was viable or not in that instance. It's about the intention of the perpetrator to do harm. |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6533 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:05:53 PM
A Better Article
The BABY survived for 3 days after being delivered. Does that change anyone's opinion? |
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Xenophonix
Female, 18-29, Europe
190 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:05:21 PM
Yes macguffin, I'm not talking about assisted suicide, that is illegal because the person who helped kill you is guilty. You cannot be charged for any offence here in the uk for trying to or succeeding to take your own life. So says the suicide act of 1961. But we're getting off the subject.. |
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 unicornsss
Female, 13-17, Western US
8 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:03:45 PM
Maybeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:00:40 PM
Apologies macguffin - I live in the uk, totally legal to try and kill yourself here :)
So do I. And I used to work in the Police Service here. Whilst it's not been a criminal offence to try and kill yourself since 1961 in England and Wales (and it never has been an offence to do so in Scotland), there are still civil laws covering it that cover issues like payouts in the case of life insurance policies. And you certainly don't have a legal right to "try and kill yourself" here any more than in the US, as several people that have been actively prevented from travelling to the Dignitas assisted-suicide clinic in Switzerland will be able to tell you.
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 SmagBoy1
Male, 40-49, Southern US
2748 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:59:38 PM
A "baby" didn't die. A fetus was aborted due to the attempt. Now, if we want to make that a crime, fine. But there was no "baby" in this situation. |
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 xiquiripat
Male, 18-29, Western US
2419 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:54:44 PM
Huh. Difficult to say. A lot of bioethics in a case like this. In the words of Oliver Wendel Holmes: "Hard cases make bad law". In this case the reverse is also true. |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6533 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:53:16 PM
@MacGuffin; I agree with making sure they were of sound mind and body. But you would have to hold the mother to the same standards you would a person going on a shooting spree or a mother her drowns her children. |
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Xenophonix
Female, 18-29, Europe
190 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:51:34 PM
Apologies macguffin - I live in the uk, totally legal to try and kill yourself here :) |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6533 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:50:09 PM
if i were a defense lawyer on Law and Order, i would argue temporary insanity. Say that she was somehow driven to psychosis because of a hormone imbalance brought on by the pregnancy.
No joke either. I would actually believe that. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:50:03 PM
@MacGuffin Yes, i would feel differently.
I find it a tricky one to call, and I'm honestly not 100% sure how I feel about this issue.
I'm pro-choice, so I've no qualms about a woman's right to choose what happens within her own body, but I also agree with term limits on abortion for many of the same reasons you state (that foetuses are developed enough to survive outside the womb by 33 weeks). I think, considering the issue, it'd all need to come down to context and intent for me. If the suicidal person wasn't of sound mind, that'd be one thing (for example, those common law statutes that prevent life insurance payouts in the case of suicide often will pay out if the suicidal person can be shown to not have been of sound mind when they committed the act). If they were of sound mind, and a foetus died as a result if their act, they'd need to be culpable. Just as a person that attacked a pregnant woman and killed her unborn child would be. |
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BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6533 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:44:25 PM
@MacGuffin the child was doing no harm to the mother. It didn't infringe on any of her right or health or anything. It was at a point in it's development that it could have survived outside of the uterus. The mother's intent was to kill herself *and* take the child with her.
I really don't see why this wouldn't be tried as murder. Maybe she would be remanded to a psychiatric hospital or something depending on her condition |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:38:30 PM
This includes whether she has the right to try to kill herself or not just because she happens to be pregnant.
Just to be clear, in law, nobody has a "right to try and kill themselves". It used to be criminal offence to try and kill yourself in most states, and it's now considered a common law offence (which can prevent your surviving spouse, for example, from claiming on a life insurance policy).
I think you're right about her level of culpability being lower if she didn't intend to kill the child, and its death was simply an unavoidable consequence of her decision to kill herself. In her suicide note, though, she did allegedly state that she was "taking the baby with her", which suggests a greater degree of intent. So, we're back to "does a foetus have the same rights as a person"? And if so, does it only have them because of its stage of development?
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 Baelzar
Male, 40-49, Western US
1348 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:35:17 PM
If the gods wanted abortion to be illegal, they would have made us to lay eggs rather than incubating the fetus INSIDE the body for 9+ months.
Sorry, religious folks. Serious design flaw. One of many. |
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