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 MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
 2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 6:58:23 AM
If this is murder, then any sort of miscarriage is murder as well. Any situation in which the mother was not able to carry a child to term is considered murder.
Oh really? Perhaps you can elaborate on why those entirely different situations are so similar in your mind? |
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 darkmagic14n
Male, 18-29, Western US
1634 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 6:44:51 AM
If this is murder, then any sort of miscarriage is murder as well.
by your logic, someone who shoots someone dead is as much a murderer as a doctor who loses a patient while trying to save his/her life |
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 Whitemn
Male, 18-29, Western US
89 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 6:44:34 AM
Those that didn't read the article, The state's 1979 feticide law makes it a crime to do anything to an expectant mother that causes the death of her fetus, and Shuai did what she did knowing — intending — that it would kill her unborn child. She even wrote her former boyfriend a suicide note saying she was "taking this baby with me."
So she knew willingly. Now should she get 45 to life for a mental issue, that's another question entirely. |
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 ggolbez
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
1814 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 6:31:15 AM
If this is murder, then any sort of miscarriage is murder as well. Any situation in which the mother was not able to carry a child to term is considered murder.
Frankly, I refuse to believe that. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 5:10:18 AM
Yes, she murdered the baby, but I would call it manslaughter. However, I do not think it warrants a heavy sentence: More just a criminal record and a black mark to her name.
If she murdered the baby, it can't be manslaughter, and vice versa. It's all about intent.
My personal feeling, after considering the situation, is that it all boils down to whether she was mentally incapacitated. If she was, compulsory mental treatment to protect other innocent people that might be harmed by future suicide attempts seems appropriate. If not, unfortunately it appears to be a criminal offence on the scale of culpable homicide or murder, depending on the intent. For me, she declared her intent quite clearly when she wrote that she was "taking the baby with her" in her suicide note. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 4:58:24 AM
Also,
is it a murder if you have multiple personalities and one of them is suicidal and the other isn't?
No, that's a hostage situation. You'd just shoot the hostage (and co-incidentally, the hostage-taker). :P |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 4:56:40 AM
Since merely expressing the desire to kill yourself in the absence of terminal illness is usually cited as sufficient evidence of a diminished mental capacity, regardless of other factors, it's a moot point. Provided the authorities can find a doctor willing to sign a mental incapacity form (and they always can), you'll be prevented from committing suicide if you express an intention to do so, or your plans are discovered in advance.
The only case I can think of that came close to challenging this legal precedent in recent times, was this one. In that case, the person had already committed the act, and it became an issue of whether to provide non-consensual treatment after the fact, rather than about prevention. Personally, I think the Coroner would have backed the doctor faced with that dilemma, whatever they had assessed the victim's mental state to be. |
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Byfield
Male, 13-17, Europe
370 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 4:50:28 AM
Yes, she murdered the baby, but I would call it manslaughter. However, I do not think it warrants a heavy sentence: More just a criminal record and a black mark to her name. |
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 Xenophonix
Female, 18-29, Europe
190 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 4:36:28 AM
One was prevented from killing themselves where mental capacity or them demanding assisted suicides involved, I will bow down and admit that you are right. |
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Xenophonix
Female, 18-29, Europe
190 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 4:34:31 AM
Macguffin - I see where we were disagreeing now - Evey case you have submitted in defence of your argument has the mental capacity act or the assisted suicide illegality to explain it. The last case of the 16 year old you posted was an example of her being forcefully kept alive because, and I quote, "she could not think logically because of her (mental) condition.
The law does not stop people from committing suicide, in fact the Suicide Act 1961 decriminalized suicide and attempted suicide. However, this does not extend to giving "claim right" to commit suicide (i.e. expect others to provide). As a result, this decriminalization should be interpreted as "liberty right", people cannot be stopped from committing suicide but one cannot demand a suicide.
I give you the quote above from the ministry of ethics. Do not confuse assisted suicide and mental health issues for people having no right in this area. If you can give me one example where someo |
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 8BitHero
Male, 18-29, Europe
5417 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 4:29:56 AM
Also,
is it a murder if you have multiple personalities and one of them is suicidal and the other isn't? |
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 BlankTom
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
6532 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 4:04:11 AM
@thesandwich it's a cry for attention and a way of "getting even" with her boyfriend. I would bet that the only reason he stayed with her for as long as he did was because she threatened to kill herself if he left. So when he did leave, she did the "i'll show him - he'll be sorry if i *try* and kill myself." I've known too many people like her that this makes me sick. |
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 madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
6406 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 3:28:26 AM
Who wants a baby that comes pre-tattooed? |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 2:41:24 AM
Another salutory piece of case law here. The 16-year-old woman involved even used the phrase "I know my rights" when confronted with the possibility of the state intervening in her desire to die. As it turns out, she didn't 'know her rights' nearly as well as she thought. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 2:05:15 AM
So if it's generally agreed upon that you have a human right to suicide, it can be argued that it's in the Constitution.
If. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 2:02:50 AM
You do not have a civil right...You have a human right to kill yourself.
I don't know about specific laws in the US (I'm sure a US lawyer will be along to advise - *shouts for Maddux*). In the UK, though, the term "Human Rights" refers specifically to those rights that you acquire through three related pieces of legislation: 1) the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that was written at the end of WW2 (and which is an international law), 2) The European Convention on Human Rights, and 3) The UK's Human Rights Act 1998.
Whilst each of these pieces of legislation asserts a "right to life", none of them asserts any 'right to take your own life'.
Just because a given act wont cause you to be criminally prosecuted, doesn't mean you have the de facto 'right' to commit that act, or that the authorities wont stop you if they find you're planning to commit that act should they discover your plans in advance or in progress. |
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 casidhe
Female, 40-49, Australia
48 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 1:53:27 AM
This is so sad. Nobody normally behaves this way.The fact she behaved in such an extreme way causing harm to herself and death to her unborn child indicates that for her the circumstances of her life were beyond her capacity to endure rationally. She deserves our deepest compassion. |
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 leesah
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
1577 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 12:34:19 AM
"So if it's generally agreed upon that you have a human right to suicide, it can be argued that it's in the Constitution."
By definition of a human right it ignores government and law completely. You have it because you are a human. It doesn't care whether or not its in anyone's Constitution. |
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 DrProfessor
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
3522 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:24:25 PM
@eddy666--they were earlier, but I don't think the person I was quoting was actually referencing UK civil rights. That said, this occurred in Indiana, so UK law is completely irrelevant to begin with.
If we're going to argue over whether this woman had the right to dispatch of herself (along with her fetus), we should do so in the framework of the legal system she is subject to. |
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 eddy666
Male, 30-39, Southern US
522 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:03:54 PM
@DrProfessor They were talking about laws in the UK, not the US. |
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DrProfessor
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
3522 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:50:46 PM
"You do not have a civil right to kill yourself. You have a human right to kill yourself."
Ninth amendment, one of my favorites, known as the "covered our asses" amendment:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Which translates to:
"Just because we didn't specifically spell out a right here doesn't mean that you don't have it."
So if it's generally agreed upon that you have a human right to suicide, it can be argued that it's in the Constitution. |
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thesandwich
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
150 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:20:25 PM
-BlankTom: so drinking rat poison was just for fun of the taste and a stomach pump? Not everyone who attempts continues to fruition. And many who attempt don't succeed on the first try, they call those attempts "hesitation marks".
If anything atleast after ingesting the poison she had a moment of clarity to realize that she didn't want to die. But at the time she was so distraught that she downed some.
In case you haven't noticed sometimes things get over-dramatized in the brain but once that actual consequences are in front of someone there is a moment of clarity. Like at all the highschool kids thinking not getting invited to the party is the end of the world only to realize it's not (not the greatest analogy, but there isn't a good one to compare to suicide).
Look, there are two victims in this story, one is dead and the other severely distraught from (and during) the whole ordeal. Unless you think the actual intent was only to kill the fetus whi |
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leesah
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
1577 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 9:55:39 PM
"I'd say that's a definition of 'the beginning of life' that everyone here should be able to agree on."
30 weeks is my personal cut off point. 23 weeks is technically how early a baby can "survive" outside of the womb, if you count being hooked up to machines that are essentially acting like an artificial womb while the baby finishes developing "surviving". |
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 lostinkorea
Female, 30-39, Europe
3620 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 9:53:24 PM
@Metalcraze: I concur, nothing has value anymore and it's only going to get worse. If she wants to die then put her on death row. |
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eddy666
Male, 30-39, Southern US
522 Posts
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Thursday, May 31, 2012 9:28:47 PM
Alright people, this is homicide of some sort. The baby was born and then died due to the rat poisoning. The fetus was developed enough to survive outside of the womb. I'd say that's a definition of 'the beginning of life' that everyone here should be able to agree on. I don't really think this is up to debate. The reasons for her 'attempted suicide' are stupid too. Maybe forced sterilization isn't such a bad thing... (I kid, I kid) If she truly wanted to die, I don't know that she would have called folks. |
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