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 Hisky
Male, 18-29, Europe
 117 Posts
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Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:47:53 AM
Agreed. She was clearly mentally ill and so cannot be held responsible for the death of her child. |
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 Justin9235
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
1560 Posts
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Monday, June 04, 2012 7:55:52 AM
No. First off it was unintentional and therefore could only be perceived as manslaughter at best. Second, and most importantly, an unborn baby is not a person (I'm not having some moral or religious debate here. Legally speaking, an unborn child is not a person) and has no rights. Therefore it's not legally murder to kill it. |
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 han5nah
Female, 13-17, Midwest US
740 Posts
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Saturday, June 02, 2012 11:23:07 AM
It's a baby, not a people. Sillies.
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 pigsnout5
Female, 18-29, Western US
548 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 6:41:25 PM
yes it's murder because the unborn child was an innocent. i say death penalty to her!! |
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 eddy666
Male, 30-39, Southern US
522 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 1:38:49 PM
@paddy215 Depends on that persons intent. |
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 paddy215
Male, 18-29, Europe
1549 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 1:08:08 PM
She deliberately killed her child in an unlawful manner. If someone else fed her the rat poison and the same thing happened would that person have murdered the baby? |
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 8BitHero
Male, 18-29, Europe
5420 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 12:12:36 PM
Obviously if she wanted to kill herself it would would mean end of the support for the baby so it the baby would die in the process. The only difference here is that she killed the baby and lived.. |
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 MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 12:10:40 PM
Should she be tried as a murderer or something like neglect?
I suppose that would depend on whom you asked. She'll probably be tried for whatever the equivalent of manslaughter (causing a death without malicious intent to do so) is in the US, purely because the burden of proof for that offence is lower than for murder, and the prosecution will weigh the possibility of getting a conviction for that lesser offence with the risk of their not quite being able to convince a jury to convict on a murder charge (and, for that matter, the risk of public outcry if she was convicted of outright murder). In my estimation, though, if you want to be able to charge a person that assaults a pregnant woman and causes her to lose her child with murder, then you need to consider this type of act in the same light, particularly with the weight of evidence concerning intent that the suicide note represents. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 11:56:34 AM
I'm sorry, you seem to think human rights give a fxck about your country attempting to legislate them.
Actually, I thought I'd been pretty clear in stating that they were based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which is international law that the USA and others created and are signatories to, but do carry on with your rant: you seem to be enjoying it so much it's a shame to let little things like facts get in the way.
So anyway, back on topic, do tell me, where is this "human right to commit suicide" that you claimed exists recorded again? |
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 leesah
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
1577 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 11:38:01 AM
How about a practical example. Say you're a male and you decide to have children with your newlywed wife who already has two young kids from a previous marriage. It is your natural right to kill those two children because they are not biologically yours and you do not have to care for them as though they are. It is not, however, your civil right to do so. Civil rights are established by law. Natural rights are established by nature. They rarely coincide and neither may be governed by the other, that is, your natural right to kill those children may not be governed by their civil right to live, but their civil right to live may not be governed by your natural right to abandon all but your own biological offspring, which is where morals come into play which is why you don't often see anyone going all male lion on their step-children. |
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leesah
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
1577 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 11:25:19 AM
"In the UK, though, the term "Human Rights" refers specifically to those rights that you acquire through three related pieces of legislation"
I'm sorry, you seem to think human rights give a fxck about your country attempting to legislate them. They are universal. You have them because you are human, not because you follow UK law. They apply to me, you, the starving kid in Africa, the scientist from Russia who's doing polar bear research in Antarctica, the Asian kid busting his balls in class, and the back of the wood rednecks in the South. I am absolutely astonished that you seem to have no grasp at all on the topic. Maybe it would be easier for you if we called them "natural rights", as some choose to do. You have the "natural right" to die as you please or to live as you please. You may or may not have the civil right to any depending on your location. "The fact that I was able to do it confirms my [natural] right to do so." |
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eddy666
Male, 30-39, Southern US
522 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 11:05:59 AM
@Student_Law
No, her intent was clearly to kill both. She says so in the suicide note. That's why this is even being considered as a murder case. |
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 Student_Law
Male, 30-39, Europe
966 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 10:48:16 AM
Her intent was not to kill the baby, it was to kill her self - though it also means killing the baby. Her intent was to kill both, in that manner.
At the 33rd week the baby has a functioning brain, it can hear, smell and see. Babies who are born between 33rd and 36st week pregnancy are determined as "Pre- term". Babies born as early as 28th week have a fair chance of survival.
This is important because she had another human being inside of her. That person is dead.
She was in a crappy situation though and her suicide attempt clearly failed, and now she is on trial too, so her situation is unique. Also, the baby was, for the time, dependent on her body. It's not like she shot the baby while holding up a liquor- store, or ran it over with the car. |
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eddy666
Male, 30-39, Southern US
522 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 9:46:08 AM
@MacGuffin
Yea, my point is it's still worth discussing how this case should be treated. Should she be tried as a murderer or something like neglect? Hopefully, we will be fed some more evidence, as what we have now doesn't make a whole lot clear. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 9:01:14 AM
May be different in UK law, but in the US, mental illness can always be claimed for just about any crime. It still goes to court, though. They would just send her to a mental institution (and hopefully a damn good one. This women seems to need serious help.) instead of jail.
IANAL, but I'm pretty sure it's the same here in the UK, that you can apply "diminished responsibility" to just about any crime.
The closest case to this one I can think of is a US woman that was sentenced to 8 years in a psychiatric facility, when she tried to commit suicide by crashing her car. She didn't die, but three men in the car she crashed into did. I just re-checked, and it seems the woman - Jeanette Sliwinski - did just over three years in prison in that case. I don't know how that came to be if she was originally sentenced to psychiatric treatment. Anyway, for me, whilst there are differences, this is about an equivalent crime. |
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eddy666
Male, 30-39, Southern US
522 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 8:49:24 AM
"I like the way you guys like to keep making assertions like "if this is murder, then any sort of miscarriage is murder" and "if that is murder then so is abortion" without ever explaining what the hell either miscarriage or abortion have to do with this."
The abortion argument might be relevant if the baby were still early along in development. I don't understand where these people are getting miscarriages from though. |
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eddy666
Male, 30-39, Southern US
522 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 8:47:08 AM
@MacGuffin
"My personal feeling, after considering the situation, is that it all boils down to whether she was mentally incapacitated."
May be different in UK law, but in the US, mental illness can always be claimed for just about any crime. It still goes to court, though. They would just send her to a mental institution (and hopefully a damn good one. This women seems to need serious help.) instead of jail.
As for the claims of her craving attention and not wanting to kill herself, that's going to require further evidence to determine, but I'd say that it's definitely a possibility. If it's revealed that she has talked about this plan before this incident actually happened, then I'd say that she probably never had the intention of following through with dying. If she was silent about it the whole time until it happened, then maybe she really DID want to die. In my opinion, I think this should go to court. Whether or not she has a mental issue can be dec |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 8:46:15 AM
If that is murder then so is abortion.
I like the way you guys like to keep making assertions like "if this is murder, then any sort of miscarriage is murder" and "if that is murder then so is abortion" without ever explaining what the hell either miscarriage or abortion have to do with this. |
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eddy666
Male, 30-39, Southern US
522 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 8:35:27 AM
@tedgp Right, and abortions aren't given that late in development. |
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 tedgp
Male, 30-39, Europe
2932 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 8:27:39 AM
If that is murder then so is abortion. |
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darkmagic14n
Male, 18-29, Western US
1634 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 7:48:07 AM
None of that made any sense whatsoever.
if you can't comprehend said situation, then you're not worth arguing with.
my use of capitalization to start a sentence is irrelevant to said conversation. my sentences have proper grammar and punctuation and are thus legible. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 7:44:27 AM
Apologies if someone else has said this, but how do we know that she was trying to kill herself and not just her baby?
I guess because of the method; it could have been lethal to herself if she'd done it 'properly'. If there were indications she wasn't really at risk owing to some aspect of how she went about it, I suppose that'd be for a prosecution to highlight. |
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MacGuffin
Female, 30-39, Europe
2597 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 7:40:59 AM
explain how a miscarriage (an accidental death of a baby while the caretaker is being responsible, presumably) is the same as someone willingly/knowingly taking a baby's life is similar.
would it help if I changed the murderer to a doctor?
a doctor willingly and knowingly gives a patient medicine he knows will kill the patient as opposed to a doctor who loses a patient while trying his hardest to keep the patient alive.
Somehow it doesn't surprise me that you type without capitalisation. None of that made any sense whatsoever. |
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darkmagic14n
Male, 18-29, Western US
1634 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 7:22:52 AM
Oh really? Perhaps you can elaborate on why those entirely different situations are so similar in your mind?
explain how a miscarriage (an accidental death of a baby while the caretaker is being responsible, presumably) is the same as someone willingly/knowingly taking a baby's life is similar.
would it help if I changed the murderer to a doctor?
a doctor willingly and knowingly gives a patient medicine he knows will kill the patient as opposed to a doctor who loses a patient while trying his hardest to keep the patient alive. |
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 Trillian42
Female, 18-29, Southern US
341 Posts
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Friday, June 01, 2012 7:15:01 AM
Apologies if someone else has said this, but how do we know that she was trying to kill herself and not just her baby? |
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