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What is Holy? (Based On Actual Trial Transcripts)

Hits: 7210 | Rating: (3.1) | Category: Misc. | Added by: kitteh9lives
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HiEv
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 606 Posts
Wednesday, June 06, 2012 8:59:13 PM
@frnttrndy: Saved *from what*?!? The wrath of an imaginary sin that is somehow passed down from my ancestors? Sorry, but saying I was born in sin because of something that happened to two storybook characters is absurd. Saying that God can save me from something God has done to me and I had no say in the matter, and he'll punish me if I don't bow down and kiss his holy buttocks is just fantasy blackmail.

I'll do good works without all of the mental pretzels religion calls "faith", thankyouverymuch.

frnttrndy
Male, 50-59, Midwest US
 49 Posts
Friday, June 01, 2012 5:28:31 PM
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

artmunki
Male, 30-39, Europe
 176 Posts
Friday, June 01, 2012 3:10:10 PM
Okay, a few others have already called out CrakrJak for showing his negligible capacity for free thought (again!), but the 'morality from faith' claim is something I find particularly offensive.

Morality has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with any religion. Morality is a form of social compact, which is the core underpinning of civilisation, and as such the basic rules of morality predate recorded history ... and therefor predate every religion we know anything about. The fact that religions want to claim morality for themselves (the only reason CrakrJak believes that is because that's what his religion tells him) is not only itself an immoral claim, but it also perverts true morality. If they restricted their moral teaching to actual morality there'd be no problem, but instead they all make claims that their own dogmatic biases and prejudices are moral issues too, which is nothing if not utterly immoral.

swoop408
Male, 18-29, Western US
 1768 Posts
Friday, June 01, 2012 6:32:44 AM
"Seeking knowledge is not always a noble thing. Dr. Mengele sought knowledge too and killed a lot of people to get it. The quest for knowledge must be tempered with morality and morality comes from faith."


One of the dumbest things I've read in a long time.

8BitHero
Male, 18-29, Europe
 5426 Posts
Friday, June 01, 2012 3:22:47 AM
@CrakrJak
So for someone like me and other people we no morality because we have no faith. "Faith is believing what you know ain't so".

ExtraCredit
Male, 50-59, Midwest US
 451 Posts
Friday, June 01, 2012 3:11:37 AM
Let us never forget that the world trade center towers were reduced to rubble by the faithful. The golden rule is all one needs. Faith is not prerequisite to empathy.

HiEv
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 606 Posts
Friday, June 01, 2012 2:02:00 AM
@CrakrJak: No, sorry, seeking knowledge *is* always a noble thing. There are less-than-noble ways to go about it, but that's an entirely different issue.

Also, no, morality does *not* come from faith. People can be ethical entirely without faith, they just need to have the desire to avoid bringing harm to others in their own pursuits.

I shouldn't have to point out all of the harm and immorality done in the name of "faith" and "religion" as well, should I?

jkfld
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 138 Posts
Friday, June 01, 2012 12:43:05 AM
I guess rats have faith in god?

carmium
Female, 50-59, Canada
 6406 Posts
Friday, June 01, 2012 12:10:27 AM
CrakrJak
Please stop perpetuating that old lie. Morality does not come faith. Fear of retribution comes from faith. By definition, faith is the arbitrary belief in something for which one has no evidence. It is not an asset nor a thing to be admired, but rather a thing to be pitied.
My morality comes from the wish to live in a world where, as a rule, we deal with each other civilly and honestly. It comes from treating others as I would wish to be treated by them. Some call it enlightened self-interest.
But it has nothing to do with mythical beings said to be threatening me for ill behavior, or what is worse, for not denying my own common sense in order to believe in them. If fear of punishment is all that drives your morality, I wonder what awful things lurk inside you.

madduck
Female, 50-59, Europe
 6001 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:48:38 PM
Crakr- morality does not come from faith. If so then those without faith would not be moral- and there are many, many instances which prove the faithless can be moral and many more which prove that those with faith can be immoral. Not just the christian faith either....

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17299 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:18:19 PM
Seeking knowledge is not always a noble thing. Dr. Mengele sought knowledge too and killed a lot of people to get it. The quest for knowledge must be tempered with morality and morality comes from faith.

DrProfessor
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 3884 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:55:51 PM
Also, Scopes may not have even taught evolution, much less eugenics. This was actually initially planned as a test case for the ACLU before Clarence Darrow, a famous lawyer, decided to use the case for his own soapbox. Scopes went and confessed his "crime" of teaching evolution (whether he actually had or not) so that he could be tried for it, and the ruling could potentially be overturned by a higher court. They didn't even plan on winning this trial--that would have ruined everything. He, obviously, put his neck out because he didn't believe in the law, but there's no evidence that he actually violated it.

Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
 33911 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:10:56 PM

And nearly 85 years later we are still argueing whether to teach evolution or not.

We are so stupid.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5727 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 8:53:48 PM
What Scopes was teaching wasn't evolution per se, but eugenics from a book called Hunter's Civic Biology

Perhaps he was teaching the eugenics stuff, but even so it didn't change the fact that teaching evolution was unlawful there, which was just idiocy in the form of zealot politicians. So the trial itself WAS about teaching evolution.

xiquiripat
Male, 18-29, Western US
 2419 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:02:44 PM
@Jamie: If it was as simple as that he would have been using the Origin of Species and not Civic Biology to teach his class. It's pretty easy to make a one-sided propaganda film like Inherit the Wind if you ignore the nuances of history.

I'm an atheist and accept evolution btw.

DrProfessor
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 3884 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 2:42:27 PM
This is actually one of the parts of the movie that was written specifically for the movie--the whole sponge shtick wasn't in the trial.

Good movie though.

jamie76
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2350 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 2:35:10 PM
xiquiripat
don't buy into the crap. eugenics never came up in the trail.

saying the trail was about putting a town on the map or eugenics or wharever apoligist crap the right wing comes up with is the same as saying the civil war was about state's rights...yea the right to keep slaves which is no ones right.

same idea, different time period. this trial was about accepting that evolution is REAL.

jinxjinx34
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 175 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 2:33:57 PM
Wow... that was surprisingly poetic. I need to see this movie now.

jamie76
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2350 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 2:32:22 PM
and for a brief moment enlightenment came to man and then the republicans dashed it away and drug us back to the dark ages (cus hey they were loads of fun!)

kitteh9lives
Female, 70 & Over, Eastern US
 1459 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 1:23:15 PM
Here's a little something about The 'Monkey Trial'

skytz1337
Male, 18-29, Europe
 690 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 1:20:38 PM
ok...downloading the movie right now..i just have to see it

Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
 33911 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 1:19:29 PM

Good movie. Not as good as the Muppets, but still worth watching.

xiquiripat
Male, 18-29, Western US
 2419 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 1:17:16 PM
What Scopes was teaching wasn't evolution per se, but eugenics from a book called Hunter's Civic Biology which is about exactly what you think it's about. And WJB wasn't the idiot that the movie made him out to be.

kitteh9lives
Female, 70 & Over, Eastern US
 1459 Posts
Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:55:27 PM
Link: What is Holy? (Based On Actual Trial Transcripts) [Rate Link] - From 'Inherit the Wind', a movie about the Scopes Trial in which a TN teacher was arrested for teaching evolution.


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