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Global Warming: What Scientists Said 30 Years Ago

Hits: 5650 | Rating: (2.4) | Category: Science | Added by: Squrlz4Sale
Page: 1 2 3 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Stormwolf
Female, 40-49, Western US
 74 Posts
Friday, May 18, 2012 5:47:57 PM
China, who boasts 1/5th of the worlds entire population, also has the worlds strictest population control policy...often enforced in draconian fashion (aborting the near-term infant, or flat out killing it at birth). This has worked so incredibly well for China, hasn't it?

If we can't get the country with the single largest population to even pretend to follow "green" laws, the rest of the world must suffer and be forced back into the dark ages to compensate?

At what point does this start to turn into a rally cry of "Lets nuke China before they drag the rest of the world under?"...a justification for the survival of the rest of the planet, if you will. What about other 3rd world countries who don't follow "green" laws?

The rest of the world hates it when the US "gets involved" in the matters of other countries, but...what this seems to be saying is that advanced countries not only have the right, but the OBLIGATION to

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Tuesday, May 15, 2012 9:22:52 AM
@Musuko: Lets take that 'dump in the pool' and examine it:

China: 1,300 pounds of poop into the pool
Canada: 33 pounds of poop

How to make the pool cleaner?
Kyoto Accord: Canada must reduce it's poop output by 6%! China, however, can POOP AWAY!
THUS: Poop is reduced from 1,333 pounds to 1,331 pounds HOORAY!

Sane People: Um, China should poop a lot less!

Reality: If Canada didn't poop AT ALL, it STILL wouldn't make the pool any cleaner! And that would mean Canada would return to the pre-stone age, no fires even! NO electricity, NO cars, NO heat in winter, NO farming. Is that going to happen? I sure hope not!!!

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2833 Posts
Tuesday, May 15, 2012 6:20:17 AM
@5Cats

"To demand half the world DESTROY their economies, while the other half (who polute just as much) do NOTHING is even more insane!"

If China takes a dump in the pool, will the water be cleaner or dirtier if you take a dump too?

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2833 Posts
Tuesday, May 15, 2012 6:18:04 AM
@5Cats

"The main problem is overpopulation."

Correct!

"No one has an answer for that, eh?"

Incorrect! Stop having so many babies!

Here's an idea: encourage our childless lifestyles by letting us gay people get married!

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2833 Posts
Tuesday, May 15, 2012 6:16:23 AM
@5Cats

"the Earth HAS been warmer before, for centuries at a time, and humanity has survived."

When did I say humanity wouldn't survive? I said our cities will be flooded and our economies will be shattered and our people will be starving.

I didn't say humanity wouldn't survive.

But we will likely be badly hurt. Badly enough for us to want to avoid it.

And referencing the past isn't of much use to you unless you can reference a point in the past when there were seven billion humans alive at the same time when the world was warmer.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 11:46:42 AM
@Musuko: Regardless of what the "chicken littles" say: the Earth HAS been warmer before, for centuries at a time, and humanity has survived.

Sure, some adjustments will be required, IF the temp keeps going up.
BUT to claim we humans are the ONLY reason is insane! To demand half the world DESTROY their economies, while the other half (who polute just as much) do NOTHING is even more insane!

The main problem is overpopulation. No one has an answer for that, eh?

mcboozerilla
Male, 30-39, Europe
 649 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 10:10:54 AM
This shouldn't even be a political issue. Valuing money over listening to the scientific community is going to cost us all dearly.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2833 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 9:56:16 AM
@Squrlz4Sale

"But don't be misled by CrakrJak's faux science. Volcano emissions are DWARFED by man's CO2 emissions, a fact known and accepted by volcanologists the world over."

I wasn't, don't worry.

I was hoping to get through to him that it's not about how much we pump out versus how much nature pumps out. It's as you say; it doesn't matter. What matters is that nature has a balance for its own emissions, but doesn't have one for ours.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2833 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 9:53:58 AM
@5Cats

That is a pretty good analogy, actually. I'll go with yours.

"The World is more than robust enough to deal with CO2. It's been higher before!"

The world is, but WE probably aren't.

If the icecaps melt and the sea levels rise and species go extinct left right and centre, of course the world will recover...

...but our cities will be flooded and our economies will be shattered and our people will be starving.

We need to be worried about climate change for our *own* sake.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5708 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 7:21:27 AM
...rise in CO2 then?

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5708 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 7:21:16 AM
Crakr: The problem is with career scientists, like Michael Mann. They are too vested in their careers to be objective and hyperventilate at the mere mention of skepticism.

So then by your logic ALL scientists are corrupt, because all of them rely on funding. Swing that judgemental pendulum the other way and ask if the 'experts' you put stock in don't have ulterior motives, hmm?

Crakr:
This pollution was harmful to our atmosphere for years afterward, but our earth dealt with it and the sky didn't fall in on us. In fact the global temperature cooled after the eruption.

And this demonstrates your laughable lack of knowledge of science. You *do* realize that SO2 from volcanic eruptions goes into the stratosphere and actually COOLS the Earth, right? Oh wait, no you didn't.

@5cats: Your graph actually proves the AGW point. When the Earth's temp rises, CO2 is released from the oceans. With no temp increase, why would there be such a...

Squrlz4Sale
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6018 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 6:34:25 AM
@Musuko42: You make an excellent point regarding balance. While natural CO2 emissions (such as animal respiration and volcanoes) are balanced by natural CO2 removal (such as uptake by plants and the oceans), there is no counter to man's CO2 emissions. This is throwing a state of rough equilibrium out of balance.

But don't be misled by CrakrJak's faux science. Volcano emissions are DWARFED by man's CO2 emissions, a fact known and accepted by volcanologists the world over.

Experts estimate the Mt. Pinatubo eruption released 42 million tons of CO2 in 1991. Compare that with the current yearly CO2 emissions from fossil fuel burning: 26.8 BILLION tons.

This is well-known information, available to anyone willing to read reports of scientists, such as those found on the website of the U. S. Geological Survey.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 6:30:35 AM
@Musuko42: I think a closer analogy would be a half-filled tub. There's water added constanly (by nature) and water evaporats out, maintaining a balance.
Humans come along and start a slow trickle of water. Some say this will overflow the tub, in 100+ years. Others say the evaporation rate will increase and the tub will not overflow.

The World is more than robust enough to deal with CO2. It's been higher before! Temperatures have been higher too! There seems to be several "self cooling" mechanisms in play that are stronger as the temp rises (unlike the alarmist 'models') We're still here...

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2833 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 6:04:30 AM
@CrakrJak

Volcanoes have always erupted. Man hasn't always polluted.

Think of the world as a bath full to the brim with volcano water. When we pour a cup full of human pollution water into it, it overflows.

The world runs in a reasonably robust balance, but that balance already includes the volcanoes. Our input is additional and new, and is upsetting that balance.

How much we're upsetting the balance, and whether the world's systems are robust enough to cope with it, are the questions worth asking.

Squrlz4Sale
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6018 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 5:20:01 AM
(Cont'd)

All of this is unfortunate. I like having discussions on here with conservatives and respect their positions. There are many issues on which conservatives and liberals can intelligently disagree.

But going in perpetual circles with someone who is anti-science and who is somehow impervious to facts is another matter. I often find myself with some time to waste, but not THAT much time.

Peace be with you, and I'll see you 'round the site. =^.^=

Squrlz4Sale
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6018 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 5:07:47 AM
@CrakrJak: Amazing. I've provided links to the data of the U.S. Geological Survey, linked to the testimony of climatologist Michael Mann before the U.S. Congress, and pointed you toward the conclusions of the National Academy of Sciences, this nation's most prestigious, non-partisan scientific body.

You reject all of it, returning again and again to the same falsehoods you've been repeating from Post #1.

Like water off a duck's back, you reject fact for rumor, science for conspiracy, and the research of scientists, both here and abroad, spanning decades, for the malicious smears and innuendo manufactured by the fossil-fuel propagandists.

My favorite quote of yours would have to be the following: "The problem is with career scientists, like Michael Mann." If that statement doesn't identify you as "anti-science," I don't know what could.

(Cont'd next post)

kinky_afr0
Male, 18-29, Europe
 581 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 2:23:41 AM
if you close your eyes, the DR guy from 2012 sounds like Gene Hackman

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16953 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 12:30:33 AM
Squrlz: The error in your quote is in the "Average" part. Since there are no major eruptions like Mount Pinatubo or Mount St. Helens right now, the "Average" global volcano emissions are very low, for the time being.

When volcanoes like Pinatubo and St.Helens do erupt the amounts of the emissions soar well beyond anything man produces in years, decades or even centuries. It's estimated that man produces around 1,362,000,000 tons of CO2 in a year, Pinatubo released over a hundred times that, plus other chemicals that are considered many times more harmful than CO2, air pollution wise.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16953 Posts
Monday, May 14, 2012 12:08:37 AM
Squrlz4Sale: As I said before, You can pump pretty much any data set of numbers through Mann's equation and end up with a hockey stick looking graph. That fact makes the equation appear self-affirming, but it's total crap.

Your quote of 3 to 5 days of human generated CO2 is complete junk. Mount Pinatubo erupted in 1991, it spewed forth hundreds of millions of metric tons of pollution including sulfur dioxide, carbon dioxide, chlorine, bromine and iodine in far larger amounts than anything ever produced by man. This pollution was harmful to our atmosphere for years afterward, but our earth dealt with it and the sky didn't fall in on us. In fact the global temperature cooled after the eruption.

The CO2 was absorbed by our abundant plant life and algae. And although a lot of acid rain was produced, it too was catalyzed.

Our planet is far more robust than you or the warmists care to admit.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Sunday, May 13, 2012 8:50:16 PM
Gee I'm grumpy lately!
My intestines have been killing since Thursday night...
... so off to bed before I am too rude for IAB to handle!

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Sunday, May 13, 2012 8:20:05 PM
@FP (that's better I hope) You just said it's OK for 2,300 MILLION people to NOT follow Kyoto, but Canada's 33 million should.
NOW you claim otherwise? Fine.
My comment before was on your stupid (sorry, as polite as I can muster at the moment) one.

But you didn't even do that! You start whining about "human rights". How is that an excuse for No Kyoto? What about India and the dozen or more other countries who get a "free CO2 pass"??

You obviously know nothing on the subject and are here to troll. No more food for you!

Squrlz4Sale
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6018 Posts
Sunday, May 13, 2012 8:03:13 PM
@CrakrJak: Your posts have contained such a shotgun blast of falsehoods that it would take me most of the night to address all of them, so I'll just pick one of the whoppers:

"The volcanic eruptions around the world in the past 30 years have caused more pollution than mankind ever has."

Really, CJ, if you've read "a lot" on AGW, as you claim, and you're still repeating that propaganda chestnut, you need some new books. The USGS has been debunking this volcano myth for over 30 years now:

"On average, human activities put out in just three to five days, the equivalent amount of carbon dioxide that volcanoes produce globally each year."

I'd provide the link, but it would probably be more instructive for you to look it up yourself, seeing as it takes all of 30 seconds: Google search terms = "USGS" and "volcano CO2 emissions."

FoolsPrussia
Male, 30-39, Western US
 3398 Posts
Sunday, May 13, 2012 7:59:34 PM
I never said "one rule for me, one rule for you." Everyone should be playing by the same, fair set of rules. China is well-known for its human-rights violations. Should the U.S. and Canada stoop to their levels of abuses? No, because we try to hold ourselves to a moral standard.

Stop trying to insult my intelligence with petty name calling. I've never done that to you. I even told you I liked you at one point. Not anymore, of course. But we can still try to maintain a civil conversation.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Sunday, May 13, 2012 7:50:25 PM
Oh, and thanks for kindly explaining!
Read @jamie's comment at 52:44 to see why I'm still P.O'd about the whole affair. People who believe others "should be silenced" really get me.

@jamie: @madest quit immediatly after I provided proof of his mass deletions of my submissions. Could be coincidence? idk, I just know that my submissions remain in the pool now!

@Fools: 33 < 2,300 You are obviously an idiot to ignore this.
Honestly, it's very liberal of you to say: "One rule for ME, a different rule for YOU". Some people (conservatives mostly) believe in "equal justice for all"...




5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24910 Posts
Sunday, May 13, 2012 7:36:08 PM
dude! This bugged you? How many people have told you to STFU but this one bugged you?

It's the @madest angle - and I usually need a little time between tauntings, or else the skin gets tender!

The @madest problem goes back to before he was a Mod. He's been rude beyond measure not only to myself but to others, THAT gets me mad!
THEN he deleted ALL my suggestions, I suspect a few times but have proof of one. I know it's proof, for everyone else it might seem to be my word vs his, but I KNOW.

So, tease away! Just let me re-group now and then, and keep you-know-who out of things

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