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Can Real Christians Believe in Evolution?

Hits: 7869 | Rating: (2.2) | Category: Misc. | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:14:47 PM
"because they behaved in an unholy way" I think this was the crux of Jendrians point, the bible either says clearly what is unholy or it doesn't, and it sounds like it does state clearly, and a lot of what its states is quite clearly rubbish, so you've opted for this nebulous 'spirit of the thing' which is about as tangible as your god.

dang007
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 594 Posts
Thursday, April 26, 2012 6:10:14 AM
>>>>FYI, the simplest and most direct explanation would be to take the writing exactly for what the words in it express<<<

But then that is exactly the opposite of what you seem to want to do. Take the Bible as a whole and explain what it expresses. God created the Universe, God created an intelligent being and attempted to have a relationship with them but could not because they behaved in an unholy way, God tried several ways to have a relationship with them (old testament), they would not change, God has a solution to this problem that solution is Christ.

The words in the Bible express this quite clearly.

MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Thursday, April 26, 2012 5:04:13 AM
It would be good to be able to see statistics showing how people changed religious beliefs, including defecting to aetheism from their birth religion, as the vast majority of religious people have accepted the religion they have been brought up to believe in. Indoctrinated from birth.

photomstr
Male, 50-59, Canada
 767 Posts
Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:10:55 AM
these ancient superstitions could produce the fall of modern man . . .

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17298 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:20:43 PM
jendrian: I never said, "because I chose to".

I believe you've intentionally tried to obfuscate and twist the meaning of scripture. Despite your claim, you do not seem to want understanding, quite the reverse.

Someone that seeks understand keeps an open mind, you've closed yours and become a pharisee to others.

MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:17:07 PM
the simplest thing would be for god to appear to us all and tell us how it is.

Anything else is subject to interpretation.

so simple a child will understand it? grow up ffs.

markust123
Male, 40-49, Western US
 3784 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:51:42 PM
Somebody hit OldOllie. His needle is stuck on Liberal.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2492 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:59:07 PM
I see... well, I guess I'm not getting anything other than: "because I chose to" from you.

FYI, the simplest and most direct explanation would be to take the writing exactly for what the words in it express, instead of hypothetical explanations of metaphor, i.e., if god says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.", the simplest and most direct explanation is that god gave the world his son so that you can never die.

But that's not directly what it means, right? You have to include interpretation to make it work, because we know no christian has ever managed to not die without external interpretation of what "perish" and "eternal life" mean.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17298 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:43:56 PM
jendrian: Then you must have missed my "Because it's the simplest and most direct explanation."

You seem to want to complicate and make understanding it difficult. You've heard the phrase, "It's so simple even a child could understand it" and that is how simple it should be. Jesus wasn't like the pharisees, lawyers, that argue over every little thing. He doesn't want us to be like that either.

It's not because I chose to, it's because Jesus chose to make it that simple.

clancy54
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 84 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:38:54 PM
This video says that just by reading the bible and not taking every single thing literally, the other parts cannot be true. That's like saying because you interpreted a part of any book differently than the talking group (read oppressive people who obviously have nothing better to do but try to belittle people) then you cannot believe in any other part of a book of non fiction.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2492 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:22:57 PM
@CrakrJak: No... it's not like that, and I don't appreciate the insulting tone. What I'm trying to do is understand all definitions and see why some people stick to one, and some stick to the other.

It's not that I don't believe in any explanation of the tree that has pizza fruits, it's that such a claim needs to be somewhat substantiated by something other than historical accounts that most people seem to agree with "in their own way".

I don't mean to insult or convert you, I only wish to understand, from your point of view, why you chose those definitions to stick with. The problem I have with your responses is that they are all "because I chose to", and that's just not enough, it's like I chose that picture of Jesus Ramirez, a football player, as the image of Jesus I wish to follow, to deliberately show how blank the statement is.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17298 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:11:30 PM
jendrian: You don't believe in any definition, thus don't even think the trees exist, let alone see the forest. You've dismissed it all, no explanation will suffice for you now.

Good luck wandering in that desert with nothing to guide you, thinking that you're nothing but an accident of nature. Sounds really lonely and depressing.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2492 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:53:44 PM
@CrakrJak: No, on the contrary, I'm not siding with any definition, I'm leading you to the source and asking you why you choose one definition.

I could remove your blindfold and show you there was no forest, and you'd still stick with the definition of "this one tree is enough to call it a forest".

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17298 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:43:27 PM
jendrian: I don't understand how that one interpretation is the one you decide to stick with, and apparently every other one that's been fed to you as well must decidedly be false.


Because it's the simplest and most direct explanation. The problem here is belief and since you don't believe you see the trees and miss the forest. You complain about "Cherry picking", but that is exactly what you are doing. You're getting stuck on the minutia and missing the concept.

If I blindfolded you and led you to an elephant you'd swear it couldn't be an elephant because it had a tail like a rat.

OldOllie
Male, 60-69, Midwest US
 14782 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:32:15 PM
@OldOllie - I'd say you're the most "full of hate" person on this board. You're always bilious.

@Buiadh Oh, I'm not claiming to be any kind of angel. I get pissed off, insulting, and even rude, but only over matters of CONSEQUENCE -- like liberals destroying our economy, education system, justice system, news media, individual liberty, and just about everything they control and their insatiable desire to control EVERYTHING. What I don't understand, is why liberals get so upset over something that is of no consequence whatsoever.

And you're begging the question: why the hell DOES it matter to you what anybody thinks about this?

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2492 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:07:35 PM
@5Cats: 7 deadly sins ... or at least their basis, that is indeed the only reason I made that post.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2492 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:06:34 PM
@CrakrJak, yeah I'm pretty sure you've heard some explanations that deal with the inconsistencies of the bible and assuming them as metaphor, I've heard that too. The nuns at my catholic school were the most loving people I've encountered, truly selfless and great educators.

I would contest every one of your points as nothing more than choice in meaning of the parables, as I've been saying, all you're doing is picking which parts of it you are to believe and how to interpret them.

I don't understand how that one interpretation is the one you decide to stick with, and apparently every other one that's been fed to you as well must decidedly be false.

I'm certain too that the interpretation of the phrases I cited is not the only one that makes sense, but again, it seems like nothing more than choice other than truth.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26253 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 6:40:15 PM
if god exists and IS nature, then nature must have consciousness

Wait, what? You lost me there @jendrian!
Nature is just the Laws of the Universe as was created by God. Nature isn't a "thing" it's a process, like evolution is!

Perhaps the nuns at your catholic school were a bit too much into discipline and ritual

You can bet the farm on that @Crakr & @jendrian! lolz!

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26253 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 6:34:04 PM
@jendrian: 10 Commandments: Old Testament
7 Deadly Sins: Not in the Bible.

"how can christians pick one passage as the way to heaven"
Because Jesus said so? Is that a trick question, lolz!

"@CrakrJak, again, I'm not overcomplicating it, you're oversimplifying it."
Actually, I think @Crakr's answer is outstanding! Well said @CrakrJak!

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17298 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 5:44:46 PM
jendrian: Jesus had 12 disciples, there is a big difference between being a disciple and being a Christian.

As for being more righteous than the "Pharisees and the teachers of the law", the only way for that to happen is to have your sins completely forgiven and only Christ can do that.

As for becoming "like little children", Christ is talking in a parable. You must be innocent like a child, so how does one become a child again? When you accept Jesus you are 'Born Again' and innocent of your sins.

This is really bush league criticism of Christianity, Jendrian. It's stuff I've heard a dozen times or more and is easy to answer.

Perhaps the nuns at your catholic school were a bit too much into discipline and ritual and not enough into answering what Jesus' parables meant.

MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 5:14:06 PM
that would b an ecumunical matter..




g'night!

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2492 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:51:52 PM
@MattPrince maybe some books are more savvy about it, most of the ones I've been reading say QFT is sound, but the point remained: what do we consider proof?

I certainly don't consider most of the experiments I've read about so far on QFT proof, but I do believe the question of the existence of god has an answer which, by the way, has been given several times throughout the course of human history, and it's a resounding no. From what I've seen, apologists offer nothing more than excuses, instead of evidence, towards the belief of the existence of god.

MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:33:01 PM
in my books the proven bit is the weak link. its not really proven, its just best fit for now.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2492 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:29:03 PM
@MattPrince: Exactly, you may define god as you will, but unless you water it down to the point of its existence being meaningless, it always comes out as false.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2492 Posts
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:26:48 PM
@MattPrince: I also have a problem with parts of scientific theories, although they are a lot less apprehensive about it.

For example, my biggest problem right now is with the proofs of quantum field theory, "the most scientifically proven physical theory to date", which in my studies I've found to be pretty much forced. It goes a little like this:

QFT calculations give us this quantity as an infinity... but we know it's not infinity, it must be X, so we must extract the physical quantities from the mathematical infinity, and make an experiment to try and get this quantity.

So far so good! So to make the experiment, we're going to have to pick a physical starting point Y, and if X ~ Y, then the theory is proven.

This is just circular logic, "X must be Y because of QFT, so we're going to blindly measure Y and use it to find X"

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