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The Real War On Women

Hits: 7282 | Rating: (2.0) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: Baelzar
Page: 1 2 3 4 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24752 Posts
Sunday, April 15, 2012 8:16:17 PM

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:11:24 PM
ShudBWorking, idk why I should bother replying to you when you obviously didn't even bother to read my post. (hint: I mentioned brain dead people and how it's perfectly legal to take them off of life support because they're essentially dead already, their other organs just remain functioning)

Like I already said, which you'd know if you bothered to read my post, which you didn't, is that there are many organs that would kill you if they stopped functioning. The heart is not the only one. So why say the heart has to be functioning? It's the same as any other organ that's vital for your body to function. However, what defines a HUMAN is our BRAIN. A brain dead person is not the same person as when their brain was functioning. They have no sort of personality or ability to do anything besides automatic functions. They are essentially a machine that's still running with no purpose, stuck in a state of dead but not quite.

ShudBWorking
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 88 Posts
Saturday, April 14, 2012 3:50:52 PM
As for your sentient argument, LillianDulci, there is a term called brain dead, where a person is still alive while non-functioning. However, once a heart is no longer functioning (i.e. not even a machine can keep it going) the person is dead, end of story. I can't wait to make it to SCOTUS to make this argument, it really seems like a shut and close case to me. On the other hand, thank you for all your posts, they are helping me understand the other point of view so that I can better argue years from now when I finally get a case that I can get there.

ShudBWorking
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 88 Posts
Saturday, April 14, 2012 3:46:53 PM
Re: LillianDulci-
Flawed Logic? Who's logic is flawed here? Were not talking about what a person can and cannot do, the subject was that of a vital organ's function. When they can no longer revive the heart, a person is dead. Again, simple logic. I really don't see the problem here, and it is easy even for a child to understand, so why can't you? Human heart beat equals human life, I really don't understand why this is even an issue, and why we still allow human heart to be stopped on a regular basis just because an irresponsible woman/man combo decided to go have sex when they didn't want a kid, which is the reason for a majority of abortions when you boil it down. If you're not ready to have a kid (man or woman) then don't have sex, it's that simple. And yes, you can go without sex, it is possible and done all the time by many different kinds of people. Examples: Practicing Catholics before marriage, dido for Christians, Mormons, and Jews.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Saturday, April 14, 2012 9:10:36 AM
"It's a compromise, one based on science, not religion or the far left extreme of 'not until it's born'."
Saying ~5 weeks is basically the same as saying never, because few women would be able to detect the pregnancy, determine she wants and abortion, schedule an appointment, and go through with the procedure within such a short amount of time.

"If you're dead your heart has stopped beating, If your alive your heart is beating. It's so simple even a child can understand it."
It's possible to restart hearts after they've stopped beating, so it's not like the instant your heart stops beating, you're dead. I can say "If you're dead, you can't eat chicken, but if you're alive, you can eat chicken" and say that any fetus can be aborted (note: I don't support it after they become sentient) because they can't eat chicken. Flawed logic.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Saturday, April 14, 2012 9:06:38 AM
CrakrJak, you'd die if many parts of you stop working, such as your liver. Why focus on the heart only? It's not like that's the only vital part of your body. It makes more sense to use their brain as a point (not allowing abortion after they are sentient) because brains define humans far more than hearts do. Not able to think, not able to process pain, not able to pretty much do anything except automatic reactions that you have no control over. Think about why it's okay to take a brain dead person off of life support. They're essentially dead, they just happen to have a functioning body (i.e. a beating heart, working liver, etc).

If you go based on heartbeat, then women can't have abortions after ~5 weeks. Many women don't even know they're pregnant by then and it's an absolutely ridiculous cutoff time.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16940 Posts
Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:41:15 AM
markust: I can understand your position. I too think a zygote isn't quite 'human' in form enough to call loosing it 'an abortion'. Many times a fertilized eg doesn't implant and flushes out a woman's body during menstruation, that part I agree with Zira about.

That's why I believe the in the 'at heartbeat' level of pregnancy to logically be the point at which a fertilized egg becomes a human being.

It's a compromise, one based on science, not religion or the far left extreme of 'not until it's born'.

If you're dead your heart has stopped beating, If your alive your heart is beating. It's so simple even a child can understand it.

markust123
Male, 40-49, Western US
 3784 Posts
Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:27:25 AM
"What you say about "It's not an abortion" is 100% correct. People say "it's not a baby" and therefor an "abortion" isn't harming a human being. My mispeaking.
I stand corrected!"

I was was pretty impressed by this but then an hour later you called it an abortion again. You're not going to win this one against woman. You were so close to being cool.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 11:15:57 PM
5Cats, it can take 7+ days after fertilization for an egg to implant, so 5 days after sex is reasonable. Sperm can also take up to 3 days to fertilize an egg.

ledzeppeloyd
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2304 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 9:21:12 PM
politics is drating stupid, especially republicans

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24752 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 9:18:36 PM
It may work 5+ days after sex. idk for sure, but it sounds like an abortifacient to me.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 9:07:45 PM
5Cats, from the link you provided:

Is plan B an abortion pill?
Absolutely not. It may be comforting to know that plan B does not work if you are already pregnant (a fertilized egg has attached to the wall of the uterus). So if you take plan B, you will not be terminating a pregnancy. However, if you already have a confirmed pregnancy, you should not use plan B because it will not be effective.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24752 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 8:55:33 PM
@LillianDulci: My adoptive mother (real Mum!) also miscarried and was 'unable' to have further pregnancies. That's how Mum and Dad got on the 'short list' to get me! And my brother too. Lucky them, eh? They thought about a third child (a girl) to adopt but...
A miscarriage is an act of Mother Nature, it happened and that's that.

I know 3 women who've had EXTREMELY EARLY deliveries, thank heaven the babies were OK! Mums too! Science, it works real good sometimes!

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24752 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 8:49:33 PM
First Try! At the top of my first search!

I'd read before (@MacGuffin is shuddering as I type this) that it works 3-4 days after sex. That's plenty of time, IF iirc, for implantation. I could be wrong though, but it's not 12 hours (literally the morning after) it's 72+
Wiki suggests up to 120 hours later for some types of drugs.

What you say about "It's not an abortion" is 100% correct. People say "it's not a baby" and therefor an "abortion" isn't harming a human being. My mispeaking.
I stand corrected!

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 8:43:46 PM
"I'm so glad your brother wasn't aborted and I bet you are too! "

But the thing is, if she had gone through with the abortion, she would have never known that he was actually alive and that the doctor was incompetent (he refused to give an actual ultrasound to my mom because he couldn't hear a heartbeat even though she insisted on an ultrasound). I may have thought it was unfortunate that I could have had a sibling but that it died. As much as I love my brother *now*, we would have had no way of knowing how he would have been and how our life would have been with him. I personally wouldn't have felt any true loss. Actually, my mom miscarried before having my brother. When I found out, I thought it was unfortunate, but that's about it. In some alternate universe where I have 2 older siblings instead of 1, maybe I would think it'd be so horrible without my oldest sibling. But I can't say I feel anything like that, considering I never knew him/her.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 8:39:17 PM
"Not what I've read"
Do you have any non-biased (i.e. not from a "pro-life" source) source that shows that the morning after pill can cause actual abortions (meaning, the egg has implanted, but because of the morning after pill, the pregnancy was lost)? I have never heard that happen before; I've only ever heard people calling it an "abortion" due to a fertilized egg being expelled, even though it hasn't implanted. That's not what abortion is though, as we've already discussed.

"it's not an abortion because it doesn't look like a baby! (etc etc)"
I've never ever heard anyone make this kind of an argument. It's an abortion if it happens after implantation, period. If she's 5 weeks along or 20 weeks along it's still an abortion. But she has to actually be *pregnant* first.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24752 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 8:11:45 PM
when we let men pontificate

Ooo! @QueenZira do tell us more! Because OBVIOSLY "men" know NOTHING about women and should never form an opinion on such things as 'life' and 'abortion' eh?
And white people should NEVER form opinions about n*ggers!
And hey! Why are YOU forming opinions about males? YOU KNOW NOTHING about how "men" think, STFU! FFS!
Now get in the kitchen and make me a sammich!

(See, I'm being sarcastic here, ok?)

(this only applies to @QZ, who has been most rude lately I must say...)

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24752 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 8:05:21 PM
That IS the point of my story! I'm so glad your brother wasn't aborted and I bet you are too!

Abortion isn't something you can "change your mind about". In MY OPINION it wipes out another, seperate human being.

My birth-mother turned 16 one month before I popped out, I am VERY glad abortion wasn't "cool" in 1963... yes I was adopted.

Yes I've met my birth-mother (so much like me it's scary!) and biological father too. I think I'm all done in the abortion topic, but will chat about that if you like...

QueenZira
Female, 18-29, Midwest US
 2181 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 8:02:00 PM
Weak broham, weak. Lemme know when you can set up that national menstrual pad collection agency/ fertility monitoring center though, that'll be a riot.

This is what always *always* happens when we let men pontificate on reproductive systems they don't posses, without fail. It doesn't matter if it's Aristotle thousands of years ago talking about the mysterious moving womb animal alive in women's abdomens or if it's right friggin' here and now talking about all the poor little egg people civilizations. Isis, Diana and Kali give me strength.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24752 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 8:00:20 PM
it does not affect implanted eggs

Not what I've read, but I do thank you @LillianDulci for conversing with me. I never expected to "change" your opinion but hoped you'd agree nonetheless!

I can and do understand what you've said, and it does have merit! I just disagree. I'm rather "hardline" on technical definitions, and when people start 'bending' them to suit their agendas? It ticks me off.
Not that you're doing that! To be clear.

It's not an abortion because it doesn't look like a baby! (2 months)
It's not an abortion because it couldn't survive outside the womb (4 months)
It's not an abortion because it wasn't born yet (8 months)
See? Excuses.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 7:54:17 PM
Also 5Cats, what was the point of your story? My mom was told my brother was dead and that she should have an abortion. She didn't believe the doctor so she went to another doctor and found out that, le gasp, my brother wasn't dead. And he's 23 years old now and still not dead. Doesn't change my opinions on anything, other than stressing the importance of getting a second opinion about serious issues o.o

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24752 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 7:53:08 PM
Nooo, @QueenZira:First of all: It takes time for the little guys to swim to the target, DUH! If the egg is unfertile, or rejected NATURALLY, or whatever, it's Mother Nature at work! (we can leave God out of this entirely, since I'm a Deist and you're obviously an atheist or something). Funny how you leave Muslims OUT of your mockery @Zira...

I'm saying that killing a fertilized (PAST TENSE) egg ON PUROPSE is ABORTION! If that is "right" or "wrong" is another matter.

Sort of sorry for the caps, sorry I have to shout to be heard really...

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 7:51:50 PM
"I believe that "culling" IVF fetuses is abortion, that's obvious to me. "

But it's not abortion because no one is pregnant. An abortion can only happen when someone is pregnant. A fertilized egg being released naturally as if it were unfertilized is not a miscarriage. A fertilized egg being released naturally as if it were unfertilized as a result of the morning after pill is not a miscarriage nor is it an abortion. A fertilized egg not being implanted into a body so that the woman doesn't become pregnant with 8 kids also isn't an abortion. A fertilized egg will never develop further without implanting.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 7:48:38 PM
"HOWEVER interference with the growth of a fertilized egg IS ABORTION! Period! If, left alone, the egg would develope into a baby? It's abortion! "

No, it's not. It doesn't matter when you think life begins because abortion/miscarriage are technical terms and not opinions. A woman has to be pregnant in order to have a miscarriage or have an abortion. Think of it like this: There's no guarantee that the fertilized egg would have implanted (I had a hard time finding statistics, but I read somewhere that about 60% of fertilized eggs naturally don't implant, it could be lower than that, but I'm willing to bet it's above 25%). Her body does not react any differently until the fertilized egg implants. Also, the morning after pill will NOT affect any egg that has already implanted. You cannot use the morning after pill for abortion because it does not affect implanted eggs. If it can't be used for abortions, how is it an abortion pill?

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24752 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 7:47:21 PM
IVF: I believe that "culling" IVF fetuses is abortion, that's obvious to me.
However, I've never once in my life said ALL abortions are bad.
Some may believe that, not me! If death or worse are the options, then abortion is 'acceptable'.

The notion of "raising fetuses" for stemm cell "harvesting" offends me greatly! But luckily science seems to have moved beyond that point. *phew!*

Personal story: Knew a couple who for 7 years tried everything to make babies. ONE round of 'fertilization drugs' and triplets were on the way!
But the ultrasound showed one was not developed enough to survive, selective abortion was reccomended.
After consulting with their Anglican Priest they decided to let "God decide". They had 3 sons! 2 healthy and 1 rather sickly. But all alive.

Not IVF it's true, but same idea.

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