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Zimmerman Appears In Court for First Time Today

Hits: 7890 | Rating: (2.1) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: fancylad
Page: 1 2 3 4 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Jonix
Female, 18-29, Southern US
 70 Posts
Monday, April 16, 2012 3:49:45 PM
It doesn't work? The girl is drunk and initiated flirtation with the guy. Maybe she's a prostitute high on cocaine which she purchased and chose to do. Neither prostitution nor cocaine are legal.. so that would make the rape okay? You say my analogy doesn't work on your ASSUMPTION that Trayvon MAY have been doing something illegal. It's not like he was gunned down while trying to break into someone's house. He wasn't caught vandalizing anyone's property. I guess just *looking* suspicious should make him fair game to be chased and hunted down by a man who has no authority to do so? I don't get it.

ivran
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 599 Posts
Monday, April 16, 2012 2:13:54 PM
@Jonix Yes, laws are sometimes based on a popular morality. That doesn't mean that all laws are based on individual morality. Also, the rape analogy is extremely weak, as, to make a point, I was arguing under the assumption that T initiated the fight. That means that what T did was not legal. Women who get raped don't provoke it through illegal activity. Your analogy doesn't work at all.

Jonix
Female, 18-29, Southern US
 70 Posts
Monday, April 16, 2012 9:32:34 AM
@Altaru
I heard on my local news that even though they got Zimmerman for Murder 2, the jury still has the power to decide to find him guilty of manslaughter. I'm thinking now that the plan was to find him guilty of manslaughter. But if they can find enough evidence to prove it was Murder 2 they want to make sure the charge is still available since you can't over-charge someone on trial, but you can go lower in severity.

At least I think so... I'm not too familiar with our court system, to be honest.

Jonix
Female, 18-29, Southern US
 70 Posts
Monday, April 16, 2012 9:25:42 AM
Also, how can you even claim that morality is completely unrelated to law? How in the world do you think new laws are created or existing laws are modified? It's all based on what the populous agrees to be "right" or "wrong." If morality and law were mutually exclusive, then abortion and gay marriage wouldn't even be a debate. If you have any theories on how else laws come into existence, please let me know, because morality is the only way I can think of.

Jonix
Female, 18-29, Southern US
 70 Posts
Monday, April 16, 2012 9:20:18 AM
@ivran
If Z followed T unarmed and Z ended up dead, then yes, I would question T just as much as I do Z right now, EVEN THOUGH following T goes against Neighborhood Watch guidelines. As soon as he saw T take off running, he should have just called the police with the last location he saw T, and then continue on his way to go shopping. He would have fulfilled his duties, and the professionals would have taken over. Most likely, nobody would be dead right now. But you asked (Lillian, but I'll answer anyway), if I would find T as guilty as Z if that were the case, and yes, I would.

As for claiming that T "could have prevented his own death 100%"... that's like telling a rape victim that she had it coming or was "asking for it." I'm a little offended by that. Yeah, she didn't have to go to that party and get drunk while wearing a sexy miniskirt, but that in NO WAY excuses the rapist's actions or make him somehow "less guilty."

ivran
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 599 Posts
Saturday, April 14, 2012 10:54:49 AM
@Altaru I think Z's account of what happened before the fight is somewhat backup by location of T's body and T's girlfriend's testimony. It doesn't completely confirm it, but it does support some parts of the story I believe.

ivran
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 599 Posts
Saturday, April 14, 2012 10:53:36 AM
@Altaru Well, if Z is guilty, he's already gotten media justice. His life is basically ruined. The few comments he's actually made since the event have basically just been stating that. I mean, honestly, a sentence is probably unnecessary at this point. The media and public have already sentenced him.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:08:02 AM
But all we have is Z's account (so far) and what he says is indeed backed up by witnesses and physical evidence.

The only part of Z's story that's backed up by what we know is that he was losing the fight when he shot.

Can't wait to see the autopsy report on M, though. Could provide quite a bit of insight.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 11:57:38 PM
Also, we don't know for sure that Treyvon wasn't doing something he wasn't supposed to, there was just no evidence of it on T's dead body.

The autopsy report has not yet been released, so we don't know anything about his body.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 11:49:19 PM
Intentions DO matter because they are what defines murder.

Yeah... And that's why the murder charge is bullsh­it...

If they'd just stuck with manslaughter, there could have been a chance for actual justice.

Instead, they're propping up a show trial just to get it over and done with... There's no way a murder charge is going to stick, even I don't believe Z deliberately intended to kill someone that night.

But without intent, there's no murder, which means there'll be no conviction (unless something REALLY big comes to light...), and no justice one way or another.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24461 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 8:40:53 PM
@ivran: head to "chat" but idk if I'll be there. I do try to NOT post while intoxicated...

ivran
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 599 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 7:34:35 PM
@5Cats @Lillian
You guys ready to have a drunken conversation? I sure am!

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24461 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 6:52:58 PM
I read your post carefully, and yes, what you say is true. At first I thought you said something else, my mistake!

My point remains: based on the evidence we have, who confronted whom? We just don't know.

Yes it is important, terribly so! But all we have is Z's account (so far) and what he says is indeed backed up by witnesses and physical evidence.
So far...

I say yet again that it's TERRIBLE that a person died in this situation. However killing a second person doesn't help things at all! Crucifying Zimmerman is entirely political, racist and immoral.

Until more evidence is known, that's my personal conclusion. I know you disagree @LillianDulci, vocally! But emotions should not outweigh laws...

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 6:32:24 PM
Not gonna comment on most of this, but IF that picture you posted of the possible paths is true, then it shows that Zimmerman was blocking Trayvon's ability to go home. The only option other option would have been for Trayvon to run around and try to go another way (where it would have been easy for Zimmerman to block him that way too) since he couldn't go straight and go home, considering Zimmerman was there. Trayvon asking Zimmerman why he's following him is reasonable, considering Trayvon was trying to lose Zimmerman and all of a sudden Zimmerman was in his direct path to go home.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24461 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 5:46:38 PM
Not one of these items can say for certain WHO attacked WHO first.
It does suggest that M is the one confronting Z, NOT the other way around. Not proof, but it's all there is, currently.

SO: to suggest that Z "must have" confronted M is... baseless. To suggest that Z attacked M is... fantasy.

We simply have no idea at this time.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24461 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 5:43:45 PM
The Dad's Walk here at IAB. Tracey recounts his version of that night's events.

The GirlFriend's Report

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24461 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 5:41:10 PM
Map Of POSSIBLE Paths Not 'proof' but a possible map of where the two were. Note that the car is parked, not used to follow.

Interactive Map Very interesting! Click "Bird's Eye View for best details!

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24461 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 5:25:13 PM
Zimmerman didn't simply pull up next to Trayvon. He had been following him and Trayvon noticed he was following him.

@LillianDulci: Not quite correct. Z never followed in his car. Z was driving out of the area to buy groceries. T walked in through the gate. Z stopped the truck and phoned police non-emergency (essentially 911, a small detail). to report a suspicious person.
T saw Z, 'checked him out' and then ran off between some buildings.
The GF said: T 'lost' Z. She told him to run home but he said "I'm not running". She said T asked Z "Why are you following me" FIRST, then she heard Z ask "What are you doing here".
Then the call was cut-off.
Maps and links to follow.

These are the FACTS @LillianDulci: while speculation is fine and all, it cannot counter the few known facts, ok?

ivran
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 599 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 2:53:23 PM
Anyways, I'm done for a while. I'll be back later(Although I might be a little intoxicate, which should make things more interesting :)

ivran
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 599 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 2:52:28 PM
However, if someone came on here and said something like that, I'm sure you would be the first to flame.

ivran
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 599 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 2:50:56 PM
"I'm publicly condemning someone who could have completely avoided a situation that resulted in him killing a teenager."
Once again, your are using your morals. This statement is not much different than radical Baptists condemning women getting abortions for being able to "completely avoid a situation that resulted in them killing an unborn child."
The logic behind both is basically the same. You just spin your statement to make it sound more reasonable, but, realistically, it's no different.

ivran
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 599 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 2:45:52 PM
child" We do not KNOW what happened after the 911 call. I'm not saying Zimmerman COULDNT have prevented it. I'm saying that that possibility isn't a reason to blame him right now. T may have well been able to completely prevent it too. The way I see it right now, it is just a tragedy for both parties involved, until we hear otherwise.

ivran
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 599 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 2:44:09 PM
@LillianDulci
Then why only focus on Zimmerman avoiding it? Treyvon could have avoided it. T's father could have avoided by being with him or joining him. Zimmerman may have not MEANT for this to happen. What he should or shouldn't have done is not up for you to decide either. Also, Zimmerman never claimed to have felt threatened. He felt T might have been a threat to other people. We also don't know that T was on his way home.

Since you're clearly not going to look at this objectively, I'm going to spin it in a different direction. Let's take away Zimmerman's gun from this story. If him shooting T was truly self defense, than Z would be the one dead right now. Then, the story is COMPLETELY opposite using your standards. In fact, T may have very well be convicted for murder. Would you still blame Z then? The only reason your arguing based on emotions is because you see Z as "some creepy guy"(Which he looks fairly normal if you ask me) and T as "a frightened

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 2:32:03 PM
"You are here publicly condemning him and saying things like "you don't feel bad for him" when, by your standards, I could justify saying things like "I don't feel bad for Treyvon.""
I'm publicly condemning someone who could have completely avoided a situation that resulted in him killing a teenager. If you want to flame Trayvon, go right ahead. Tons of people have already done that on this site.

"Is that some attempt at an insult?"
Not really. I said it because republicans are the main supporters of Zimmerman, but they always go on and on about public responsibility, and yet act like there was nothing Zimmerman could have done to avoid killing Trayvon, when there's at least 2 very easy things he could have done to avoid the situation.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, April 13, 2012 2:29:18 PM
is following you at night.

I'm not saying Trayvon's innocent because he was carrying snacks. We have no proof that Trayvon was doing anything wrong, other than Zimmerman suspecting him of doing something wrong. We do know that he was only carrying around snacks, NO tools that could be used for a crime besides his own hands, and that he was headed home, which we know because he was killed within sight of the door to his dad's house. Also, there's no reason to speculate about him possibly doing something wrong because he was not in the process of doing something wrong when he was killed (besides possibly harming Zimmerman, which might have been self defense, and which wouldn't have happened if Zimmerman hadn't left his car or followed Trayvon).

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