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New Witness Confirms Zimmerman's Account (Pic+)

Hits: 18090 | Rating: (1.9) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: 5Cats
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26648 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 4:38:25 PM
If he didn't witness it then he's not a drating witness!!

Hope that you're joking here...

The guy heard the fighting and went out to look. It was literally in his back yard. He 'witnessed' Z on the ground yelling for help and M on top beating on Z. He told M to stop it, then went in to call 911. While inside, on the line, he heard the shot. He went back out and 'witnessed' the positions of M and Z after the shooting.

K, happy?

paddy215
Male, 18-29, Europe
 1676 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 3:45:12 PM
"This technical aspect of it seems cut & dried to me, but apparently causes confusion in others (Sharpton, Jackson & etc)."

I hate when those two are on my side of an argument, they try and turn everything into a race row which detracts from the real issues. I wouldn't be surprised if they feature in Kanye Wests next single.

I can't speak for anyone else who thinks Zimmerman is guilty, but personally I don't think the situation was due to race. I just think the most likely scenario going by the evidence thats been made available is that Zimmerman followed Martin in an attempt to stop him from leaving before the police arrived and that this action lead to a confrontation which resulted in Zimmerman shooting Martin dead. If Zimmerman hadn't have acted like an idiot vigilante there would have been no problem. Martin would be alive and well, Zimmerman would not be public enemy number 1, and we would not be having this debate.

paddy215
Male, 18-29, Europe
 1676 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 3:18:57 PM
"@Paddy: That's because the witness didn't see that part."

If he didn't witness it then he's not a drating witness!!

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26648 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 3:04:33 PM
But when one of you dies... It's a legal mess

Yup, that's for sure!
But the idea is that an innocent person (who was only trying to survive) shouldn't rot in jail for 6 month - 1 year waiting for trial, eh?
They can still be charged though, so it's not a "get out of jail free" law either.
It's mostly the call of the cops, and they called it Zimmerman's way because that's how the evidence pointed.

This technical aspect of it seems cut & dried to me, but apparently causes confusion in others (Sharpton, Jackson & etc).

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 12:07:44 PM
M told his GF: "I'm not running" and his GF says M spoke first to Z (who was indeed following him).

So it all comes back to who actually has the right to claim self-defense.

See, now, before the whole Stand Your Ground thing came around, this case would have been cut and dry.

It would have been M's obligation to continue running and Z's obligation to let him go, because under the previous laws you weren't supposed to stand and fight if there was a way to escape.

But suddenly, under the new laws, you can turn and challenge someone you feel is threatening you!

But when one of you dies... It's a legal mess. Because without any witnesses that saw the whole ordeal, we only have the testimony of the person who survived. And that's never going to be biased. Of course someone who could go to jail for manslaughter and lose all his law-enforcement hopes and dreams wouldn't try to cover his own ass.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26648 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 11:28:02 AM
@Altaru: We're discussing Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, not gun control.
The "stand your ground law" gets discussed because it applies to Z's defense.
"Who initiated contact" is open to debate, did M turn and walk towards Z on that sidewalk? WE don't know, do we?
M told his GF: "I'm not running" and his GF says M spoke first to Z (who was indeed following him).
Sounds just a little hot-blooded to me, but that's MY GUESS!
(I have to emphasis that now, since the M side is running out of arguements, some (not you @Altaru) have taken to nit-picking)

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 11:16:51 AM
So yes, he apparently DID just ask, literally: "What are you doing here".

Also, on this topic...

I've been chased down by some crazy redneck mother-draters.

There are times when "What are you doing here?" means something more like "If I catch you, you're gonna be pig food.

Not saying Z was like that, but still... Sometimes the person's tone of voice and actions at the time matter more than the question they're asking.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 11:06:41 AM
Z defends himself, push leads to shove & there you go!

And, again, this all leads back to my issue with gun control.

"Push leads to shove" leads to the situation heating up, leads to someone getting shot and killed over a minor misunderstanding.

And you claim he would have been hot-blooded... He knew he wasn't doing anything wrong and the door of his house was within view. Sure. He totally would have attacked a docile, innocent person.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26648 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 11:02:56 AM
By "attacks him" I mean it could be as little as trying to grab Z's phone. That's still an attack though. Z defends himself, push leads to shove & there you go!

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26648 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 10:59:50 AM
Who's more likely to initiate contact:

Quite honestly? With no racial bias whatsoever? A 17 year old.
Zimmerman was taking courses in Police stuff, he'd KNOW BETTER than to attack anyone, wouldn't he?
A hot-blooded (they're ALL hot blooded) teenager is in fact more likely to resort to violence. You even say: "especially when the adrenaline is flowing."

How did M get on top? They were fighting, that's how. How'd the back of his head get injured? He was on his back, M was pounding on him, it gets banged on the sidewalk?

idk: I didn't see it, when I say "jumped from behind" that's what Z said, but it could mean a LOT of things.

How about this: After a brief arguement, Z says I'm calling the cops and turns away to use his phone. M snaps and attacks him.

Just as likely as Z attacking M. Not saying this is impossible, but...

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 10:51:52 AM
That's where we get the "Trayvon attacked first" idea from. Not only his testamony, but the fact that Trayvon was on top of him & beating him.

And I've already proposed a counter argument to why Martin was on top:

He knocked Zimmerman down, realized there was a gun involved, and didn't want to turn his back on someone that could stand up and shoot him from behind.

I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 10:49:28 AM
Noooo @Altaru, I'm questioning the 'logic' of the pro-Trayvon side:

Well, the logic is sound. Appearances have very little to do with someone's abilities, all things considered, especially when the adrenaline is flowing.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 10:47:42 AM
So NOW you're saying that it IS possible Trayvon could be a good fighter, but it's still not possible he jumped Z from behind?

I'm not saying whether he did or didn't, but you're making the assumption that Martin couldn't have taken Zimmerman down in a frontal confrontation, and that's irresponsible and downright wrong.

It also wouldn't make any sense for Martin to initiate the conflict if Zimmerman had stopped acting in a threatening manner.

Or perhaps Martin thought like you did? "Someone's been following me, yelling at me... This guy's got some bulk on me, I probably couldn't take him head-on, so I should wait for an opportunity."

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 10:43:39 AM
5Cats, I'd also like to ask a question.

Who's more likely to initiate contact: A lanky 17 year old with a bag of skittles and an iced tea who just wanted to get back home to his little brother and watch some movies?

OR

A 26 year old watch captain who believed that said 17 year old was doing something wrong, followed said 17 year old against the better judgement of a 911 operator (he admitted to it, keep that in mind), and had a gun on him?


ALSO: If Zimmerman was attacked FROM BEHIND, then how did he end up with an injury on the BACK of his head? Wouldn't he have fallen face down if someone had knocked him forward from behind?

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26648 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 10:40:47 AM
@jt: Work > IAB!
@LillianDulci: Study > IAB!

You're making assumptions about the situation based on appearances

Noooo @Altaru, I'm questioning the 'logic' of the pro-Trayvon side: asking a question is not making assumptions, right?

@OldOllie is a very funny guy! He's been grumpy-posting lately, idk why.

So NOW you're saying that it IS possible Trayvon could be a good fighter, but it's still not possible he jumped Z from behind? I'm more confused than ever! Not by the M vs Z fight, but by those arguing for M!

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 10:29:05 AM
Again I ask: this "skinny kid" overwhelms a "big guy" after a frontal attack? Not bloody likely! After jumping him from behind? Much more likely.

You obviously haven't met my cousin.

Tall, lanky looking kid, maybe 6'3", looks like a toothpick...

And he can kick my ass in a head on fight.

You're making assumptions about the situation based on appearances. That's irresponsible and I sure as hell hope that it never gets mentioned in court.

idk what's gotten into @OldOllie today, he's usually quite reasonable.

Since when? I dare you to go back and find more than two posts by Ollie that could be considered "reasonable" and aren't filled with blatant bigotry or downright ignorance. Ollie is, and has been for quite a while, the laughing stock of any politically charged IAB post.

Even JT agrees with me about the "reasonable" crap.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 10:06:52 AM
Sorry for leaving the discussion yesterday, I have a test to study for and had already spent too much time here ,_, I'm not going to backtrack and respond to people since it's been a day anyway, except I wanna say ty squrlz for the compliments xD (and 5cats too, I wanna say I've thought a lot of what you've said about this was more reasonable than some of the other people I disagree with ^^) No way I'm going to law school, I'm happy with being an engineering student :P

About the whole age thing, I'm really happy to see that people on IAB don't use that against me. In other places I've debated, I've had older people essentially say my argument is invalid because they're older and they know better, which I haven't heard even once here. I think we're more flexible at this age. If you'll believe it, I was a right-leaning (on social issues anyway, excluding gay marriage which I've always supported) Christian when I first joined IAB xD

jtrebowski
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 3261 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 9:36:23 AM
@5cats: Which leaves a gap between the initial confrontation and the actual fight. I've got to do some work, so let me think about this and get back to you tonight.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26648 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 9:15:51 AM
@JT: The Girlfriend said Trayvon asked Zimmerman "What are you following me for" THEN Z asked him "What are you doing here". So yes, he apparently DID just ask, literally: "What are you doing here".

After that (which is the most important part actually) we have only Z's report on the matter, which is that Trayvon jumped him from behind.

That's where we get the "Trayvon attacked first" idea from. Not only his testamony, but the fact that Trayvon was on top of him & beating him.

Again I ask: this "skinny kid" overwhelms a "big guy" after a frontal attack? Not bloody likely! After jumping him from behind? Much more likely.

jtrebowski
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 3261 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 8:41:45 AM
5cats: "...OldOllie today, he's usually quite reasonable."
You're kidding, right?

"That's because the witness didn't see that part"

And yet HOW many times on this thread and others have people claimed Trayvon "attacked" Zimmerman?

"but is it illegal to ask someone what they're doing?"
No, but do you seriously think he went up to him and said "pardon me young man, may I enquire as to where you might reside?" He was chasing Trayvon. If some big dude I don't know gets out of a car in the neighborhood I'm staying or living in, starts coming after me going "hey,come here" or anything like that, I'd be seriously freaked out, especially if I was only seventeen. I honestly don't know what I'd do.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26648 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 8:27:01 AM
fyi @Squirrelz: @Altaru has a history of poo disturbing, he's young! idk what's gotten into @OldOllie today, he's usually quite reasonable.

at no point in this article does it give any mention of who started the fight

@Paddy: That's because the witness didn't see that part.

For absolutely no reason.

Other than bing on 'Watch Duty' you mean? His reason may be flimsy, but is it illegal to ask someone what they're doing?

"Clayton Bigsby" is hysterically funny!

paddy215
Male, 18-29, Europe
 1676 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 4:36:38 AM
"For the "naysayers":
If you cannot disprove the news, attack the newsbringer!


And you and many of your ilk have proven that true!!"

There is no news in this article, it just tells us bits and pieces that we already knew. Your whole defense of this child killer centres around who caused the confrontation and at no point in this article does it give any mention of who started the fight, it just shows us that at some point towards the end of the confrontation Martin was on top. The only evidence we have of who started the confrontation is the fact that Zimmerman was the one who followed Martin. For absolutely no reason.

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12741 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 1:11:44 AM
Geraldo: a black boy walking alone at night wearing a hoodie constitutes reasonable grounds for suspicion that he is of violent criminal intent and you are entitled to execute him just in case. Ergo, open season on black boys wearing hoodies.

Exqueeze me? WTF?!?

DingDingDong
Male, 30-39, Western US
 1504 Posts
Monday, March 26, 2012 12:02:34 AM
It's a conspiracy brought on by Skittles. Skittles sales are through the roof!!!

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Sunday, March 25, 2012 10:18:50 PM
LOLZ! Nobody is as bad as Sharpton. Clayton Bigsby is a better spokesperson.

You know... For some reason, I thought he was just a joke. I mean, seriously? A blind black man who thinks he's white and joins a white supremacist group? Sounds like Uncle Ruckus.

Now that I know his name, though... I'm actually laughing my ass off. That's so pathetic, it's hilarious!

(Yes, I'm a horrible human being.)

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