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Trayvon Martin Case Sparks Debate Over Law

Hits: 7432 | Rating: (2.5) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25283 Posts
Tuesday, March 27, 2012 8:10:49 AM
@j_dizzik_27: No, actually the "castle laws" are there so you CAN use greater force, unlike in Canada. So if a mugger comes at you with a knife, YOU don't go to jail for scaring him away with a gun.
Shooting him requires more 'threat'. I think him on top of you beating your face would count as a "threat" don't you?

j_dizzek_27
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 216 Posts
Sunday, March 25, 2012 11:12:55 AM
Only is it justifiable to use deadly force if the force opposing you is equal or lesser. That means if someone's shooting at you, shoot the f back, or if you don't have a firearm, you can use a knife or a blunt object to bludgeon your attacker. There are also ways of effectively disabling an attacker with your bare hands, like ripping their ears off (though there are more). That aside, did Martin even have a weapon? If not, this guy is fried.

mischeif954
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 408 Posts
Sunday, March 25, 2012 2:49:25 AM
@5cats "The "skateboarding" incident that's briefly mentioned?"

Maybe because the man was initially arrested for man slaughter and is then defending himself under the law, not immediately cleared at the scene of any wrong doing, no drug test, no further questioning at the PD nothing.

I've seen a lot over the internet of this white person was attacked by this black persons type cases and they are still @ large but, not pne where for sure they knew who the assailant was and where they were located and simply failed to continue investigating. If this is not the case it's not an apples to apples comparison and conveys that you are biased right of the bat for you to feel it is even comparable or relevant.

If this bias does not exist then hopefully you can see passed that and understand why there's such a "media outrage" and it's not just for Obama's reelection.

jtrebowski
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 3261 Posts
Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:56:53 AM
@CJ: If you're going to apply Zimmerman's past as a judge of character, why won't you do the same for Martin? Neither one of them had any prior convictions, both have family members stating they were good people, yet in your eyes, Martin is "shady". (your words) All based on one mans account who had just shot a kid and obviously being fully aware of the gun laws in the state of Florida? Hmmmmm....

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17035 Posts
Saturday, March 24, 2012 3:50:04 AM
Zimmerman's neighborhood had seen quite a few crimes as well, 8 thefts and at least 2 burglaries in the last year. Zimmerman actually helped police catch one thief last year.

robosnitz
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 2752 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 10:03:41 PM
Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.

Yaezakura
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 431 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 8:34:34 PM
It says literally everything I said. I never said he was convicted, only charged.

As for the "Watch" thing, he seems to only be a member of a Neighborhood Watch because he claims to be. From what I can find, none of his neighbors liked him, and many had filed complaints about his "Watch" activities. It sounds to me like he was just one nutso with a gun claiming to be "protecting his neighborhood" from young black kids who like Skittles.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25283 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 8:25:57 PM
Seen your link already, it says NOTHING like you've put forth.
"registered" but he's still a Watch member, correct?
#7 Martin had no criminal record, neither does Zimmerman.
& etc.

Yaezakura
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 431 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 8:01:05 PM
@5Cats: Actually, he was NOT a member of any registered neighborhood watch group, and in fact carrying a weapon is against the regulations of the neighborhood watch. If you want sources, this page lists all I mentioned earlier and more, and sources its list.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25283 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 7:53:25 PM
Z was a nutcase who had called police pretty much every time he saw a black person.

@Yaezakura: This is an outright lie. 45 times in 15 months = 3 per MONTH. I'm fairly certain he saw "black people" more often than that, since the neighborhood is only 50% white, eh?
PLUS: He's a member of the Watch, and had assisted in the arrest of a criminal.
of the police

No, of the 911 Dispatch.
Multiple witnesses say that M was crying out for help, never Z

LINK! Or stfu.
The police reports were amended to support Z's claim of self-defense

LINK! Or stfu.

@Yaesakura, if YOU are going to spout b*llsh*t, link the source OR stfu, plz & thx.
Everything I've said is either linked previously OR I openly admit I am speculating.
You are simply repeating outright lies.

Yaezakura
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 431 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:59:08 PM
Oh 5Cats, let's look at all the facts here:

Z was a nutcase who had called police pretty much every time he saw a black person. His neighbors describe him as "fixated on crime, and focused on young black males". Z followed M against the express instructions of the police. Z had previously been charged with resisting arrest and assaulting an officer. Z was not tested for drugs or alcohol, as is standard procedure, and a law enforcement expert says he sounds drunk on the 911 tape. Multiple witnesses say that M was crying out for help, never Z. The police reports were amended to support Z's claim of self-defense, as they did not initially include any evidence that Z was injured or had shown any signs of being in a struggle. Police flat out ignored one witness because their claim differed from Z's, and tried to correct another when they said it was M who called out for help.

If you're going to spout facts, spout all of them.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25283 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:36:05 PM
5Cats, you're insane.

@jendian is that more conjecture or is it projection?
YOUR theory omits or ignores KNOWN FACTS. You seem to have no trouble doing that, I wonder why, really I do!

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25283 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:34:15 PM
Hi @Stormwolf!
How is this NOT murder

I'll tell you how:
Zimmerman follows Martin.
Martin evades him, loses him.
Zimmerman finds Martin again
M asks Z 'Why are you following me' FIRST says the GF.
Z confronts M, asking what he's doing there.
(here's MY speculation & possible explaiation)
Z turns to look at the street sign, possibly taking out his phone to call 911 again
M jumps Z from behind. He's 6"2 remember?
As they scuffle, Z is injured.
(here the witness sees M on top and returns home to phone 911)
Z cries for help, no one comes
M sees the pistol and trys to get it
In the struggle to control the gun, it goes off, killing M

NOT murder IF ( and I'm the first to say it's IF) thsi is true.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2490 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:30:56 PM
k, I'm out. This is very clear, whether it was a mistake or not, he did chase and kill an unarmed person. That is murder that can't be explained as self defence.

5Cats, you're insane. At least CrakrJak tries to make sense

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25283 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:28:37 PM
that Trayvon was most likely acting in ACTUAL self defense

Same thing @LillianDulci, you are conjecturing what happened based purely on emotion. See what I did there?

So you're saying a "scrawny teen" overpowered a 250 man without getting so much as a scratch? Is this kid a Kung-Fu master or something? srsly... On the one hand he's a "helpless kid" but he's able to mop the floor with a "big adult"? Make up your minds!
And remember, the witness saw Martin ON TOP of Zimmerman.

Stormwolf
Female, 40-49, Western US
 74 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:25:03 PM
@ jendrian: Actually, OJ Simpson IS in prison, and won't be eligible for parole until 2017. However, not for killing Nicole...

As to the idea of "stand your ground", it's my understanding Zimmerman CHASED Trayvon Martin down, and that even the cops told him NOT to confront Trayvon. This tells me that Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation, not being a good citizen. Whether the gun went off "accidentally", or if Martin somehow pulled the trigger in the fight is moot...Zimmerman never should have confronted Martin in the first place. Follow him, sure. Provide information to the Police as to his location when they arrived, sure. But play Cowboy even after being told NOT to? How is this NOT murder, no matter what race he or Trayvon were?

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 25283 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:23:48 PM
it can't be self defence because he instigated the assault.

So says YOU! Were you there? Do you have some inside information the rest of the world does not? @jendrian what you're doing is called "guessing". You have no evidence, not even one little speck, to back up your statement.

He stopped Martin, this is true. How much time passed between this and the shooting? 15 seconds? 2 minutes? A world of difference there.

Zimmerman contends he was looking at a street sign when he was jumped from behind. Until an actual witness contradicts that, it's the ONLY evidece we have. It is backed up by his injuries and stains, your conjecture has nothing.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2490 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:21:42 PM
how about following him with your truck, cutting him off when he runs away from you, coming out of your truck and scaring the sh*t out of you until a gun is pulled (by someone, whoever it was) and somebody dies?

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:20:35 PM
"There is no evidence that Zimmerman 'instigated' an assault. Asking someone a question is not inviting an assault. "

There is evidence that Zimmerman thought Trayvon was a criminal (and thus most likely, when approaching him, wouldn't be acting friendly, even if he was simply "asking a question"). There is evidence that Zimmerman was stalking/following Trayvon. There is evidence that Trayvon had reason to be afraid of Zimmerman (supporting a self defense argument for TRAYVON, since you keep mentioning how Zimmerman was injured but don't seem to acknowledge that Trayvon was most likely acting in ACTUAL self defense).

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17035 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:14:55 PM
jendrian: There is no evidence that Zimmerman 'instigated' an assault. Asking someone a question is not inviting an assault.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2490 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 6:00:22 PM
Ok first, it can't be self defence because he instigated the assault. The case fits every part of the definition of manslaughter by negligence and unlawful justification. You cannot claim self defence if you instigate the fight in the first place.

Second, fear of their lives? If there was video evidence or any evidence that proved without a shadow of a doubt he was innocent, every media outlet would look stupid, again bringing up OJ, did the jury fear their lives?

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4527 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 5:40:00 PM
jendrian-"the man still admits to committing manslaughter"

In Florida, manslaughter, defined as: "The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder.."

Seeing as he has claimed lawful justification (self-defense), he has admitted to no such thing. Please try to stick with the facts.

If it goes to a jury trial, even if they found solid video evidence that it was self defence, no jury anywhere would dare find him innocent..for fear of their lives.

It gone beyond the point where such ethereal concepts of 'truth' or 'facts' make any difference.

jendrian
Male, 18-29, Canada
 2490 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 4:16:24 PM
@5Cats: The gun "went off"? Zimmerman stated that he shot him, it's in the official police report.

@MeGrendel: Well, if your media is so powerful that it can affect the application of the law (as it did with OJ right? He's in jail isn't he? oh wait), then there's something wrong with your justice system.

If you want to play it like this is a racial issue, then the argument wouldn't be who shot who, but why he shot him. There would be no argument as to whether he shot him or not, but whether it was racially inclined or not. This latter is the one that everyone but 5Cats agrees with, you know with the whole "I shot him" Zimmerman said but whatever, and there's the whole name-calling in the 911 call, so maybe it was racially inclined, if only a little bit.

Then again, what I've been arguing this whole time is that even if you remove the race part, the man still admits to committing manslaughter.

LillianDulci
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 2696 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 4:14:48 PM
"Did Zimmerman pull the trigger?"

He said he did. I doubt that's something he'd say if it really went off by accident, because it makes him look worse.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4527 Posts
Friday, March 23, 2012 3:20:05 PM
jendrian-"The parents and their followers stirring up a mass media coverage "

And I don't know of may parents who wouldn't.

BUT, the media, in-mass, automatically jumped on the racial issue for ratiings. That DOES effect the application of the law.

I have not problem with Farrakhan saying he will 'see what kind of jsutic will come'. I DO have a problem of 'the llaw of retaliation may very well be applied'. (as in: Try him and find him guilty no matter what, or all hell will break loose.) That DOES effect the application of the law.

Now that the Media, Sharpton, Farrakhan and now Obama have stepped into the matter, they're making Zimmerman (spanish-speaking latino) out to be a 'Rush Limbuagh, card-carrying republcian KKK member'. (And yes, one media member has already blamed Limbaugh, Gingrich, Santorum & Romney for the incident)

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