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God And Free Will: Why Is There Evil?

Hits: 7812 | Rating: (2.4) | Category: Misc. | Added by: Dead_mind
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 435 Posts
Friday, March 02, 2012 10:49:39 AM
I see what you're saying. One thing catches me though. Perhaps I'm simply misunderstanding...

"Making that decision is not a choice. I could
choose to accept an undetermined claim as 'true' but in reality I would be dishonest (with myself) in doing so. " Making the decision is not a choice, but the decision itself is (as is any decision) and regardless of whether or not you're being honest, you still have that option, that choice.

In that case, Otto, there is nothing, including my religious views, that I conclude is true AND I did not use reason and logic to come to that conclusion.

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:46:28 PM
"I choose to believe she is faithful because I think I know her, and if she wasn't, it would hurt and there would be a mess, and I love her. But I do NOT, without any uncertainty, know it."

You have come to the conclusion your wife is faithful, I think righfully so. But you based that on reason and evidence, of course you can't 'know' 100% that she is faithful so it is a belief, and a reasonable one. SHe has shown herself to be truthfull and honest over a long period of time. Knowledge is information, belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true. When a claim is made by someone you have to decide if that claim is true, false or you do not have reasonable knowledge to accept the claim, it is undetermined. Making that decision is not a choice. I could choose to accept an undetermined claim as 'true' but in reality I would be dishonest (with myself) in doing so.


jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 435 Posts
Thursday, March 01, 2012 4:32:55 PM
Otto: My wife is not cheating on me. I have no evidence she is not, but I'm reasonably sure of what kind of person she is and, though I could be mistaken, she wouldn't do that. I choose to believe she is faithful because I think I know her, and if she wasn't, it would hurt and there would be a mess, and I love her. But I do NOT, without any uncertainty, know it.


I agree, it would be insane to believe in santa, that was merely the first thing that popped into my head. swap it out with Sasquatch, UFO's (Which ARE real, I see things in the sky I can't identify all the time). The effect is the same.

You didn't comment on my replacing belief with knowledge. I wish you would. I think I'm on to something there.


Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:37:45 AM
jadoig:

Outside of your religious views,

Name one belief you hold about the world that you conclude is true AND you did not use reason and logic to come to that conclusion. If you can name one explain your justification for believing it.

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:18:01 AM
"I can choose to believe in Santa if I want."

You can choose to say you believe in Santa, and probably even tell yourself some rationalizations to convince yourself, like "Santa lives in our hearts". But a person cannot use reason and choose to believe an actual fat man lives at the North Pole and delivers presents to all the worlds children. If you could convince yourself of that you would be delusional and if you have enough delusions you are insane.

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 435 Posts
Thursday, March 01, 2012 10:33:42 AM
I think the issue I'm having is with the seeming misplacement of the word believe. If you had said we can't choose to know something, I would agree. I can't choose whether or not I know something is green, it either is or isn't.
To recap: I think we CAN choose our beliefs. I do not think we can choose what is true or choose what we know. (But we can choose what we think is true, but then, isn't that just a belief?)

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 435 Posts
Thursday, March 01, 2012 10:27:55 AM
This is interesting. I've done some reading and this particular topic is yet another wedge driven between theists and atheists (For the most part, from what I found).
A common atheist viewpoint is that belief is not a choice but a logical conclusion based on evidence. I can understand that yet I don't know if I agree. It seems to me that we can choose to believe whatever we want, however illogical. I can choose to believe in Santa if I want. That might make me an idiot, but that's not the issue here.

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:26:30 PM
jadoig:

I can't decide I now believe I can become invisible, or that the sun rises in the west. They are not decisions. Now those are obvious but now take it to religion. Can you just change you mind and decide you believe in Islam? No you would need a reason to 'believe'. Now you obviously have personal reasons you believe in Christian dogma, one cannot choose beliefs, one looks at information and forms beliefs off that information. I was raised in Christianity, I went to a Christian school and at one time I belived in it. Now I am an atheist, I did not decide to become an atheist, I started asking questions. I did not find my questions to be properly answered by the priests or other ministers. I looked elsewhere, I did not lose faith, I realized faith does not lead to truth, it leads to unquestioned answers and therefore cannot be trusted. Religion does not like questions.

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 435 Posts
Wednesday, February 29, 2012 9:19:42 PM
"You are under the assumption people can choose what to believe."
This is lost on me. How are we not able to choose what we believe?

re: Pascal's wager: This seems logical. It isn't what I prescribe to though. I'm of the opinion that you can't half ass faith in God and Jesus that way and expect it to work. Going through the motions may very well, in some cases, blossom into full on Faith and "rebirth" into God, but I think the danger is greater, after a period of time, of deluding yourself into thinking it is enough.

TkA
Male, 30-39, Western US
 115 Posts
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:36:57 PM
evil came from knowledge.

God will remove it from us at the time appointed.

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:12:10 PM
VekToVik:

I think the video would possibly make better sense if it used 'suffering' instead of 'evil', so the question is why did god create needless suffering? Could he not have created man with free will without needless suffering? It is one thing for man to create his own suffering but there is plenty of suffering that is not man made. It is a philosophical question. Also I don't see asking the question as evangelism as it does not provide an answer.

VekTorVik
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 2 Posts
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:51:45 PM
I had to create an account to comment on this. I can't believe someone has enough spare time to create a video of ramblings complaining about what they consider ramblings. And they were serious. To argue that babies dieing is inherently evil is not correct. It is called life. Bad things happen, that doesn't make them evil. If you don't believe in god it is not a problem, but to actually make a video of it. That is evangelism.

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:48:59 PM
"As it is though, it is all laid out. The terms and the consequences. You choose God, or hell."

You are under the assumption people can choose what to believe. I would argue people are given information and decide if that information is to be believed or not. Beliefs are not choices. I find UFO reports interesting and even in some cases compelling, yet without better evidence I do not 'believe' UFO's are extraterrestrial. I could be wrong but it sounds like you may be using a version of 'Pascal's wager'. In my opinion I do not find the god of the Bible worthy of worship as he is defined, even if it turned out to be true. Infinite hell is immoral, if I can understand that concept, it should be simple to an all powerfull creator.


Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. - Thomas Jefferson


jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 435 Posts
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:24:58 PM
I can't disagree with part of that. I couldn't do that either.
I wouldn't call it immoral though, just extreme and, it seems, cruel. I only see it from my point of view though. If God tricked people into hell, then yes, immoral. As it is though, it is all laid out. The terms and the consequences. You choose God, or hell.

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:26:40 AM
"As for you being more moral, is it immoral to punish one you love when they do something you set before them as wrong?"

Yes it is immoral for a number of reasons.

1. The crime is finite. The punishment is infinite. I would not, and COULD not lock my children (or even my worst enemy) in a torture chamber forever, period, I don't care what the crime was.

2. This one you hit on by writing, "such is the case with all things God, where often the only proof is the bible which is usually dismissed as evidence"

If it is of utmost importance that I (as god) get my message across to my children (their eternal soul) I would make sure there was absolutely no confusion as to my expectations. The Bible is one of THE most confusing and contradictory assembly of writings. It would be immoral to punish ANYONE for doubting its validity.

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 435 Posts
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:44:58 AM
Otto, I misspoke about the earthquakes. I have no proof, only conjecture (such is the case with all things God, where often the only proof is the bible which is usually dismissed as evidence). I withdraw the statement.

As for you being more moral, is it immoral to punish one you love when they do something you set before them as wrong?

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:09:35 AM
"Would you want to spend eternity with people who decided against you and went so far as to blame you for all their problems, whether or not you loved them? Would you allow your adult children to hang around if all they've done is disrespect you? Would you want to spend forever with that? Would you stop loving them? (The correct answer is no) Why should God be any different?"

If there was no proof of my actual existence I think I could deal with my creations doubt and not torture them forever, and I am a flawed human being. Apparently I am more moral than the god you describe. I also find it interesting that you say god does not cause earthquakes 'anymore'. When did he stop, how do you know he stopped and why? I would like real answers with evidence not just conjecture.

Zeegrr60
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 1959 Posts
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 2:52:59 AM
There is still no god. Check in later when reality stays the same.

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 435 Posts
Monday, February 27, 2012 8:28:32 PM
Would you want to spend eternity with people who decided against you and went so far as to blame you for all their problems, whether or not you loved them? Would you allow your adult children to hang around if all they've done is disrespect you? Would you want to spend forever with that? Would you stop loving them? (The correct answer is no) Why should God be any different?

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 435 Posts
Monday, February 27, 2012 8:26:53 PM
[EDIT OF Cheeseb's POST BELOW]
There is NO paradox here, I feel
1.God doesn't want us to be robots
2.God gives us free will
3.God knows almost everything
4.God has a good idea of how many will choose evil, even to the extreme of eternal damnation
5.God says (by way of the Bible) that "narrow is the gate and few will enter" into salvation. Meaning the majority will face eternal damnation, by their own choosing.
6.This is something God knows before he creates Man, as he knows the nature of Man.
Claim: God sacrifices the majority of people to eternal damnation, so the few that are saved will be saved by their own choosing rather than being forced to choose. However, had God decided against the whole "free will" bit, everyone would be robots and God would spend eternity with boring automatons..

Would you want to spend eternity with people who decided against you and went so far as to blame you for all their problems, whether or n

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 435 Posts
Monday, February 27, 2012 8:19:33 PM
imnakdjumpme:
His premise was a bit off. It's less like a father and a son than an inventor and his creation. God has created an enormously complex system. Is he morally responsible for the quirks and occurrences within that system? If a bolt breaks on your ball joint and your car veers off and hits a kid, is Ford responsible?
I don't think God really knows what earthquake is going to hit where, unless he causes it, and He doesn't do that any more.

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Monday, February 27, 2012 6:06:06 PM
Cheeseb:

You make an excellent point. According to all the priests, pastors and reverands I have talked to, god can be understood only to the point that the theologan is able to rationalize the answer, then god becomes a mystery and unknowable....it is very convienient.

InTheNameOf
Male, 30-39, Western US
 335 Posts
Monday, February 27, 2012 3:24:34 PM
One persons evil is anothers good.

cheeseb
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 226 Posts
Monday, February 27, 2012 2:59:40 PM
There is a bigger paradox here, I feel
1.God doesn't want us to be robots
2.God gives us free will
3.God knows everything
4.God knows how many will choose evil, even to the extreme of eternal damnation
5.God says (by way of the Bible) that "narrow is the gate and few will enter" into salvation. Meaning the majority will face eternal damnation, apparently by their own choosing
6.This is something God knows before he creates Man
Claim: God sacrifices the majority of people to eternal damnation, so the few that are saved will be saved by their own choosing rather than being forced to choose. However, had God decided against the whole "free will" bit, everyone would experience salvation.

I have a very hard time understanding how so many people claim such a fundamental adherence to something so convoluted (See Occam's Razor and Copernicus's explanation of the rotation of the heavenly bodies).

When one supposes there is no go

imnakdjumpme
Male, 18-29, Western US
 595 Posts
Monday, February 27, 2012 2:53:00 PM
viper,

I see your point but the premise is off.
It is more like if your father created a self-supporting torture device that he let loose on you until you die of old age or the torture device and doesnt do anything to intervene to help you learn some lesson, (or sometimes does help out if you pray hard enough or if he feels the need).
Also, at least with a real dad, he wont be parenting you your whole life, or at least you have the choice to move out. Not with god though. God convicts you of things that you think in your head and wont leave you alone even after you die. what a horrible idea!

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