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America's Science Decline - Neil deGrasse Tyson

Hits: 11072 | Rating: (2.9) | Category: Science | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
HiEv
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 598 Posts
Wednesday, January 04, 2012 4:09:29 PM
Regarding the off-topic discussion of "slaves vs. servants", it should be noted that in the Old Testament, male Jews could only be in an indentured servitude for six years (unless he wants to remain a slave for life) and many references were made specifically regarding *Hebrew* servants (see Exodus 21:1-11). However, that same courtesy was *not* given to non-Hebrew and/or female slaves.

The "heathens" however, can be bought and sold, and are yours forever. See Leviticus 25:39-55 (specifically 44-46).

Note that this isn't limited to the Old Testament either. The New Testament says, "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." - 1 Peter 2:18 (One of several NT examples.)

If that's not slavery, I don't know what is.

HiEv
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 598 Posts
Wednesday, January 04, 2012 3:48:28 PM
This thread reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw which read, "There was a time when religion ruled the world; it is called the Dark Ages."

While religion doesn't always hold back science, historically it's certainly the #1 reason for science being held back, with a lack of funding being a distant #2. Galileo was censored and imprisoned for stating the truth that Earth is not the center of the universe.

Heck, the Catholic church didn't even want the Bible available in English, for crying out loud! These are not the defenders of truth, but the defenders of the status quo. The advancement of science is often seen by them as an attack on religion, and something to be fought against (look up the "Wedge Document").

That aside, funding is currently a huge problem, mainly due to downplaying the importance of science education. So even indirectly, the attacks on science make education more difficult in other ways.

patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
 5717 Posts
Tuesday, January 03, 2012 12:50:37 PM
I'm irritated I missed this thread. From religious tangents to people claiming science would be better off if private companies funded things (LOL), I've definitely missed out here.

mcboozerilla
Male, 30-39, Europe
 649 Posts
Monday, January 02, 2012 11:12:50 PM
Where in Western Europe do you find creationism being taught in science classes or global warming deniers? Enough said.

skine
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 724 Posts
Monday, January 02, 2012 10:45:39 PM
Oh, and to go back a few pages:

LHC confirms discovery of new particle.

skine
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 724 Posts
Monday, January 02, 2012 8:11:01 PM
"Servant does not equal Slave, no matter how many times you say it"

You're right that servant != slave.

*or that that was common practice among all slave holding civilizations.

However, that's not what we're debating.

The thing is, now that it is a commonly held belief that slavery is wrong, people have begun rewriting the Bible to make it look like God wasn't endorsing slavery.

skine
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 724 Posts
Monday, January 02, 2012 8:07:57 PM
"I see you avoided the previous verse or verses 26 and 27 that makes it clear that servants aren't slaves.

Exodus 21:
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Slaves on southern plantations, were never freed because of injuries, nor were masters punished for their deaths."

Those verses don't imply that they weren't slaves.

In fact, they strongly imply (if not outright state) that they were slaves. If they are not slaves, why would they need to be freed by their masters?

Just because beating slaves was relatively common in the US, it doesn't mean that all slaves are beaten regularly, or that that

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Monday, January 02, 2012 11:08:32 AM
Crakr: "Servant does not equal Slave, no matter how many times you say it, I've proved they weren't by the different ways each are treated."

If I accept your point that slaves were treated differently than servants does not prove there were not slaves and in fact proves that slaves existed. You have never proven your statement that
"the Jews themselves did not keep people in 'slavery', you have only made the ASSERTION.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17147 Posts
Monday, January 02, 2012 10:51:27 AM
Otto: You were the one that made the switch there buckaroo, by quoting an obscure Rabbi from 1861.

Servant does not equal Slave, no matter how many times you say it, I've proved they weren't by the different ways each are treated.

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Monday, January 02, 2012 9:05:54 AM
Crakr:

I was using this to refute your statement "the Jews themselves did not keep people in 'slavery'", not that Jews nowdays still think slavery is acceptable. Saying the 'slaves' were really 'servants' is wrong. My point on this was very apparent in that I used your quote to start with about jews not owning slaves, so trying to muddy the water by attempting to switch the talking point is deceptive, but seems to be a common theme with you.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17147 Posts
Monday, January 02, 2012 4:05:55 AM
Otto: Very carefully examine the date ..1861.. The year the Civil War started. I could likely find another Rabbi with the opposite opinion that same year.

But today, I doubt you could find even one Rabbi that would hold to Rabbi M.J. Raphall's opinion.

Skine: I see you avoided the previous verse or verses 26 and 27 that makes it clear that servants aren't slaves.

Exodus 21:
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Slaves on southern plantations, were never freed because of injuries, nor were masters punished for their deaths.

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 10:54:07 AM
Rabbi M.J. Raphall (circa 1861) justified human slavery on the basis of the 10th commandment. It places slaves
"... under the same protection as any other species of lawful property...That the Ten Commandments are the word of G-d, and as such, of the very highest authority, is acknowledged by Christians as well as by Jews...How dare you, in the face of the sanction and protection afforded to slave property in the Ten Commandments--how dare you denounce slaveholding as a sin? When you remember that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job--the men with whom the Almighty conversed, with whose names he emphatically connects his own most holy name, and to whom He vouchsafed to give the character of 'perfect, upright, fearing G-d and eschewing evil' (Job 1:8)--that all these men were slaveholders, does it not strike you that you are guilty of something very little short of blasphemy?"

Otto67
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 438 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 10:38:07 AM
Crakr "the Jews themselves did not keep people in 'slavery'."

Here is Jewish Rabbi who would disagree....the only people who I have ever seen take your side are Christian Apologists like you. (next post)


skine
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 724 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 10:29:38 AM
(sorry for the triple post)

Also, I the argument could easily be made that, just because God gave rules regarding the treatment of slaves, it doesn't necessarily hold that the Jews owned slaves.

However, why would God give the commandment in that case?

skine
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 724 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 10:21:44 AM
Of course, that's ignoring that Exodus 21:21, in most of the versions using "servant" state that "[the servant] is his money."

Which doesn't make much sense in any context other than slavery.

skine
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 724 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 10:17:54 AM
It depends on which translation you use.

For example, if we look at Exodus 21:20,

New American Standard, The Message, English Standard, New Living Translation, Holman Christian Standard, Darby Translation and Douay-Rheims 1899 American versions use either slave or bondman.

Amplified, King James/21st Century King James, American Standard and Young's Literal Translation use servant.

Wycliffe New Testament uses servant, but includes slave in parentheses.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17147 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 6:39:48 AM
Angilion: No, The Jews had servants, not slaves.

The Bible references the two with different words and the Jews themselves did not keep people in 'slavery'.

And as I said earlier, even today young people can choose to 'serve' in the military, the Peace Corp, Americorp, etc and get clothed, housed, fed, and trained much like Jewish servants were back then.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11501 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 2:00:45 AM
The bible makes a differentiation between slaves and servants. Slaves are unwilling unpaid forced laborers, such as the Jews themselves were subjected to in Egypt in Moses' time. Servants were paid, treated a lot like family, they were clothed, housed, fed, and trained, a lot like apprentices were in medieval times.


There can a difference between slaves and servants, but slaves are also servants. All slaves are servants, but not all servants are slaves.

A reference to servants does not mean that they were employees who served for pay, freely. Slaves were frequently referred to as servants (because they were).

Also, slaves could be "treated a lot like family, they were clothed, housed, fed, and trained" and they could even be paid. Which doesn't mean they weren't slaves.

The Christian bible refers to *slaves*. You're doing what you object to - applying modern morality to ancient times.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11501 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 1:54:54 AM
What hurts our sensibilities now, was very commonplace back then and if you think the Jews were brutal to their enemies, their enemies were much much more brutal, at least the Jews gave warning to their enemies, gave their people a chance to convert and live, their enemies gave no such quarter.


It was quite common to give enemies a chance to surrender utterly and without conditions, to become part of your empire. Many conquerors did that, not just Jews, because it's often more efficient than war.

Jewish accounts make Jews out to be less brutal than their enemies. Just like almost every other group's accounts make them out to be less brutal than their enemies.

Alexander of Macedon is a good example.

Alexander the Great, bringer of civilisation.
Alexander the Accursed, tyrant and destroyer.

Depends who you ask. Both have truth in them.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11501 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 1:39:04 AM
CJ's no fly-by-night troll. He sincerely believes the stuff he says and will defend it to his dying breath.


That's true. Even when it contradicts something he wrote before. And then he'll defend that too, repeatedly contradicting himself in an eternal present without past. He acts like a troll, but he might just be another theist with an irrational position that doesn't match either reality or itself.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17147 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 12:48:27 AM
Happy New Years to you too Davymid.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17147 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 12:46:57 AM
The Israelites got their people together, purified themselves of the plague and raised an army to slaw the kings of Midian. The Israelites took home the usual spoils of war, which included the very women that gave them the plague in the first place, So Moses commanded that the Midianite women be slain that were not virgins so that the plague would not return. Moses also made the soldiers that returned purify themselves and all their spoils for 7 days before they could return to the Israelite camp.

This was just a bronze age way to control the outbreak of a deadly form of plague/VD.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17147 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 12:32:24 AM
Many young people today do pretty much same thing when they join the military, they serve for a period of 3 years or more, learn a trade, and gain employment more easily after they leave.

As far as your crap about, "encourag(ing) men to wait in the bushes...and pounce on women to "take them as their wives". Judges 21:15-25 does not say that God told them to do that, does not mention rape at all, and it was NOT the Israelites that did it was the Benjamites that did that.

Next, your claim of "God tells his chosen people to slaughter everyone in every village they come across that refuses to instantly convert" is another lie. In the book of Numbers the Midianites drew the Israelites into sinning and worshiping false gods, as a result the Israelites suffered a plague that killed 24,000 of their people (perhaps it was some sort of VD, just a guess), the Israelites cried to God for help and he told them to smite the Midianites...

davymid
Male, 30-39, Europe
 12078 Posts
Sunday, January 01, 2012 12:18:43 AM
Yaezakura: Since you are new here, I'll let you in on my reputation here, and I'm sure Davymid will agree...I do NOT back down from a debate

CJ, to be fair, Yaezakura's been here since 1997 according to his profile, that hardly qualifies him as "new here".

And Yaezakura, I do actually have to back CJ up on that particular fact. He's not a cowardly troll who drops bombs and then pisses off elsewhere, he does respond even to old posts. We can argue until the cows come home about how f*cked up our differing world-views are (and we do), but CJ's no fly-by-night troll. He sincerely believes the stuff he says and will defend it to his dying breath.

He's many things to many people, but he's not a coward.

Anyways, f*ck all that noise. HAPPY 2012 BITCHES!

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17147 Posts
Saturday, December 31, 2011 11:38:22 PM
What hurts our sensibilities now, was very commonplace back then and if you think the Jews were brutal to their enemies, their enemies were much much more brutal, at least the Jews gave warning to their enemies, gave their people a chance to convert and live, their enemies gave no such quarter.

The bible makes a differentiation between slaves and servants. Slaves are unwilling unpaid forced laborers, such as the Jews themselves were subjected to in Egypt in Moses' time. Servants were paid, treated a lot like family, they were clothed, housed, fed, and trained, a lot like apprentices were in medieval times.

If you were young and poor and had no trade skills, you would sell yourself into servitude to help your family, then earn the money needed to pay back the debt all while learning a trade so that you could earn a living after the debt was paid back or time served.

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