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 Corpsecrank
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 873 Posts
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Friday, December 16, 2011 2:26:09 AM
Nice ebook liquid. A shame no one cares. But hey I hear the price on an ebook just skyrocketed so maybe you should hit amazon and publish your post there. It would give you an opportunity to reach that 1% yourself and see what both sides look like and then you would have your whole puzzle complete. |
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 Liquidglass
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
1098 Posts
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Friday, December 16, 2011 1:57:43 AM
@Baelzar:
I believe you have a very interesting point and while yours goes outside the scope of my hypothetical with FoSchizle you are correct it does create wealth within the States. However, I believe you're still missing the "leak" effect that will take place over time. But that's ok as I'm sure it's just a missing piece of your puzzle much like your point was a missing piece of mine. |
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Liquidglass
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
1098 Posts
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Friday, December 16, 2011 1:57:28 AM
You also have to take into consideration the volatile effects of politics that can have an effect on the design and sales economy. If our products are mass produced in other countries (mainly china) and they decide politically that they want to raise prices or completely shut off manufacturing. Then it would be the equivalent of you losing your job and not having savings. It's a wonderful synergy created between nations but only if the nations can fully trust and work together in harmony. Otherwise it's a trapeze act with no safety net.
I will have to disagree with you believing the wealth is "created" While you are correct one person or organization can 'create' wealth for themselves you have to look at the source of the wealth. With buyers lacking buying power wealth is impossilbe to create. |
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Liquidglass
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
1098 Posts
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Friday, December 16, 2011 1:56:56 AM
@FoSchizle
I appreciate your courteous reply, and I will have to agree I think we are viewing it from different schools of thought. Thank you for your input. I'm always looking to learn something in a way I hadn't thought of before.
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 Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
3534 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:55:16 PM
After reading some of that article ATPno34, I'm beginning to wish even moreso that Cavuto had let her finish at least one sentence. I really hope these inhospitable working conditions are at least some of what she and her fellow pizza-party-protesters are out there to condemn on the part of the Sachs, and not merely the advent of "wealth creation." |
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 ATPno34
Male, 18-29, Western US
27 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:15:58 PM
In case no one has posted this yet , there ARE no unions in some of these ports, and THAT'S the problem. I'm no union-lover, but that's because I thought we had ditched the 1930s and people in this country didn't have to work in third-world working conditions anymore. Is this the F'ing Lochner era? Open letter from port workers in Los Angelesopen letter from the port workers of Los Angeles |
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Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
3534 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:00:48 PM
I wish Neil would have let her finish her sentences and I don't know what the HELL he was talking about at that end-point, but.. What is this demonization of wealth-creation? Seriously - her ostensible objective is to create wealth for workers, right? Creation of wealth is a benefit to all of society, for reasons I don't need to elaborate on here. Of course, I didn't get to hear all of what she had to say due to Neil's fear of being presented with an argument he couldn't counter, but attacking a business entity with legitimate interest in a viable industry does not equate to rewarding them for malinvestment, which is what this movement was supposed to be all about opposing.
So - it's more like a punitive strike with more collateral damage than targeted quarries, and I really can't get over this tone of hostility toward the creation of wealth due to valid business transactions. |
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 Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
26248 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 8:15:56 PM
Baelzar - You are confusing "wealth" with "greed".
Take Health Care for example. Announced today were the average salaries of CEO in that industry - up 36% over the last 4 years. Did they, as you put it, add value to a product? Is the asperin better? No, they just added cash to their profit margin. HMO's and banks have enjoyed record profits during the greatest economic downturn since the Great Depression, but not by "adding value" to any product. |
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 angelo0317
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
335 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:26:24 PM
Yea, try to effect the "1%" by making putting so many people out of work and effecting every as a consumer... I don't know how you sleep at night young lady. |
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 Baelzar
Male, 40-49, Western US
1348 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:55:33 PM
Gerry, you create wealth when you take something and add more value to it than it took to make it.
In the case of an IPad, that's a combination of labor (both to design and to fabricate), parts, and time.
If the sum of those equals less than what people will buy it for, then the number inbetween is new wealth.
It works with purely intellectual pursuits as well; an author takes 6 months and writes a novel, gets it edited, formatted, and sells it as an ebook. If enough people buy it, wealth is created. Not moved, not stolen. Created.
As for your other suggestion, companies don't hoard cash. They don't just put it in a bank account and let it sit there, regardless of what OWS thinks. |
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FoSchizle
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
294 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:11:12 PM
youtube.com/watch?v=5HMjqQaWqes
Simple, well done video illustrating my point. |
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 tatripp
Male, 18-29, Western US
1187 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:14:21 PM
uggghh. she seems like a college know it all hippy |
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 xio
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
14 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 2:00:34 PM
It bothers me that the newscaster cares more about kids receiving presents than anything else. |
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PhotoKing
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
523 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 11:52:42 AM
i agree with fox on this. she calls herself proud, but the only people she's hurting at the people who want the goods. everything she buys will go into the pockets of the richer people. she isn't doing anything positive but keeping the 99% from doing their jobs ALL the way down the line.
she's too focused on thinking that this will some how affect things. it's really sad. |
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 vegascartman
Male, 30-39, Western US
735 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 11:19:12 AM
I dunno KRW888, I thought he made his case quite perfectly! |
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 Ruffiana
Male, 30-39, Western US
508 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:32:25 AM
@Gerry1of1, well said.
I would add that these corporations aren't going to die, they'll just move to another market and start leeching the wealth out of it without a second thought for our country. |
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Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
26248 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:25:22 AM
@ Baelzar - oh contraire mon frere
"Wealth" is not just the cash you get from selling a product. It's a sustainable level of profitability. A short term boost of cash is not an economic gain.
If a company hoards all it's wealth {building/selling product overseas} without reinvesting in it's community in the way of jobs, schools, salaries, then the long term projection is a downward spiral into poverty. Eventually no one can afford the product and the corporation, like a tape worm, has starved it's host to death and it too dies. |
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Baelzar
Male, 40-49, Western US
1348 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:19:32 AM
FoSchizle, Liquidglass, you are both wrong.
The only thing that matters is where the value is added. If Apple, an American company, designs the iPhone here, has it built cheaply in China, but sells it all over the world for USD $499.00, then the wealth is created HERE.
Even if 100% of the parts and labor are Chinese, it's the design that adds value. Same with cars, software, vacuum cleaners, cell phones...as long as it's designed and sold by American companies, then our economy changes from a manufacturing economy to a design & sales economy.
The wealth remains here. |
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 EgalM
Male, 18-29, Canada
1690 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:59:36 AM
Wow, just wow, the stupidity level on this one is through the roof. Sure banks may help fund companies at start up, but I would hardly say they run it. Protesting a port to get at a bank is stupid.
Let's just say for the hell of it, that all the stuff passing through this port is food and medical supplies. Are people's lives worth your personal agenda against a seemingly non-related group? What about the workers who depend on an exact salary, where one day of lost work will set them back?
You attack the 1% through legal actions, petitions, lobbying, etc. This is crap approach. |
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krw888
Male, 50-59, Canada
135 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:41:44 AM
Neither of them made their case. He tried to bully her and she tried to ignore his questions. |
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Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
26248 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:30:13 AM
FoShizle "sending factory jobs overseas actually NETS jobs here in America"
We created jobs here by sending them there.
Huh?
Okay, you mean the dock worker unloading the boat. Okay, 500 jobs went to a factory in China. 10 dock workers were hired in the US.
500 - 10 = ? You do the math and tell me again we created jobs by sending them to China.
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 patchgrabber
Male, 30-39, Canada
5329 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:27:24 AM
@Liquidglass:
Way TL;DR |
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 robosnitz
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
2752 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:39:28 AM
He's a dick. |
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FoSchizle
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
294 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 6:17:19 AM
@Liquidglass:
I get what you're saying, but I still disagree. We're probably just looking at it from two different schools of thought and won't ever agree on it.
Regardless, I'm not saying we shouldn't produce anything, just not the things for which we are a high opportunity cost producer (which is most factory jobs). If we ship those out, we have more money to produce ideas/improvements to the rudimentary goods that we outsourced. Of course we can't produce nothing and sustain ourselves, but there's other ways to produce outside of factories. |
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chance13
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
220 Posts
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Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:21:46 AM
@FoSchizle: Globalization has an evening effect. It will (and has) brought lower technically advanced countries leaps and bounds in technology (gleaned from the more advanced countries) and give them new and exciting jobs. Unfortunately, there is a finite number of jobs to possess when you put this on a global scale...so, if you take those jobs from the folks that have been working them at a higher rate of pay and move them to a country with a MUCH lower rate of pay...the folks that lost the job just lost it...no expansive market of sales...no new and exciting area of employment...just a lost job. |
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